Robert Loring

Re: Isolated

12-03-2002

I think you can still be a HeroicHomosex Warrior even if you are isolated. J/O is how I handled it when I was living in an isolated place a few years ago. I eventually moved to a bigger place where I could have contact with other people. I was still a Cockrub Warrior in my isolation even though cockfights and frot were both far and few between. I dont think it is circumstances that determine what a HeroicHomosex Warrior is but, rather, your like for frot and your state of masculine mind.

I, like you, spent many years hating myself, being ashamed, and feeling embarrassed, and even less than "manly" because I liked engaging in frot with other males. I, like you, spent many years going to counselors and likewise all this was in vain as all that counseling did not change my desire and preference for dick2dick male sex. I grew up in a family in which my mother was seldom around and very non-nurturing and in which my father was an abusive alcoholic. Ironically, my family also claimed to be "Christian" and they raised me in a Southern Baptist Church. So between my father's alcoholic abusiveness and the guilt trip layed out by our religion I grew up feeling really guilty and "sinful" because I liked dick2dick sex with other boys my age.

By the time I hit my mid-teens I was "out of control" because the guilt and shame had made me a very angry young man. I myself was by this time a full blown alcoholic and druggie and I tried to cover it up but everybody knew what I was. And, everybody knew that I was a "fag" because that was the label they stuck to me. But I wasn't a "fag" and I did not engage in anal sex like I thought all "fags" did. All I liked was frot and an occassional blow job and J/O. In my early 20s I tried the gay community routine and quickly discovered that I did not belong with them. I did not feel like one of them and they did not feel I was like them. I tried the heterosexual routine and got married and instantly hated every minute of it. I ended up getting a divorce and realized I did not like the pure hetrosexual thing either. So I felt I did not belong anywhere nor in any group and this feeling of not belonging only made my depression, shame, and guilt worse.

I attempted suicide many times and came real close to succeeding the last time. But, I did not care at the time because I had given up. Given up on belonging and given up on trying to "change" myself into a pure hetrosexual man. I was absolutely certain that when I died I had a prepaid "ticket" to Hell anyway (Thank You Southern Baptist Church!!) because of my like and desire for cockrubbing. By this time in my life I had accepted the label of "fag" and made it so while never realizing that LABELS are ONLY VALID if YOU live up to them!!

Near age 30 I got married again (I was really fucked up in the head man and really stupid too!!). This time I married a woman who had children from other marriages and I suddenly became an "instant dad". After about a year and a half of that I couldn't stand it anymore. I did not want to be a "daddy" and the honest fact is I did not know the first thing about being one either! My "daddy" role model was my insane alcoholic father who got drunk and beat the hell out of us every other day. So this marriage also ended in divorce and again I felt that I belonged nowhere.

I came to a point in which I realized my life was in shams and I had to do something to get it straightened out. So, back into counseling I went for the upt-teenth time!! Fortunately for me I got a good male counselor named Jeff and he was very perceptive. In my third session with him he confronted me on my sexual orientation and it was not a peaceful experience because my reaction was to deny it and then play "macho" with him threatening to kick his ass if he revealed my preference to anyone.

As my counseling with Jeff continued I came to understand that cockrub did not make me a "fag" and that I could still like cockrub and be a man. This counselor somehow knew all about frot (gee...I wonder how...lol) and he helped me to get off the alcohol and drugs. He helped me understand my sexuality and masculinity and I came to feel comfortable with myself as a man and as a cockrub warrior (as termed on this website). I realized that I could still hold onto my masculinity and like dick2dick with other men and, to me, that was one hell of a "revelation"!!

And so I straightened my life out, finally, and I went on to finish college and became a counselor and social worker myself. Following in the line of my Heroic Frot Counselor, Jeff, I work with many men helping them to understand and accept their masculinity and like for Frot.

Well, this is the "short version" of my life story...lol...and it all boils down to this: All the guilt, shame, embarrasement, and self dislike DESTROYED me from WITHIN my ownself. I never had to worry about burning in hell because I was ALREADY there in my own mind!! All these feelings ate me alive and sunk me to the bottom of the garbage can. I now reach out and speak out to other men like me in an effort to help them NOT go down the same road I went down. I figure that and frot are two reasons I walk this earth and, for me, that is enough.

Ok, that is the end of my saga for now...lol. I hope somewhere in all this writing you might find your own self insight and I especially hope all of you realize just how bad these negative feelings can be and what CAN and DOES happen to some of us as a result.

Sir Robert

P.S. Any of you feel free to contact me anytime. Not as a counselor but as a Brother and Friend.

Luke

Re: Isolated

3-11-2003

I think I understand what Farmboy Warrior talks about and I don’t wonder why. How many times has Bill told me the attraction and desire I feel is normal and masculine? Talk about your isolation, I’m living proof you can live in the largest city in my states and still be alone especially when it comes to having any close male friends, even of the nonphysical variety. In my case isolation has been what I thought was a way of suppressing a longing to engage in the male to male bonding I experienced in high school. It seems the repercussions of this self imposed isolation has made it all but impossible for me to establish a relationship with another man that extends beyond casual acquaintance. I think it would be easier for me to split the atom than open myself to the possibility of a physical and emotional relationship with another guy. I know this reticence is because I’ve labored for years under the illusion that straight men don’t have same sex yearnings. The intellectual knowledge that what society and culture has told me is a lie has not proven to be palliative in relieving me of the anxiety and apprehension when it comes to attempting to establish a meaningful relationship of any degree with another man. But I’m hopeful.

I said before that straight society has taught me that male friendships are established within a rigid and sterile environment that restricts our capacity to communicate our desires to bond on a physical level. I think this cultural stricture has a greater impact on some of us especially when we have been confronted with the arbitrary consequences that can be imposed for such an expression of masculine affection. I also think it is an injustice that men have to suffer for wanting to express this natural affinity to establish a closer camaraderie with their friends.

Sometimes it seems as if we are tilting at windmills.

Robert Loring

Re: Isolated

3-11-2003

If you take a minute and ponder all that you have come to know you will discover that much of what society says is WRONG. You will also discover that much of what society has done is to turn what has historically and traditionally been RIGHT into "wrong" and wrong into "right". The physical aspect of male bonding (C2C) is a good example of this.

Man is the only creature that fights against his own nature. How much easier our lives would be if we would just BE who and what we are.

Perhaps what needs to be considered deeply is what is more important. Knowing and being our Heroic Homosex masculine selves? Or trying to be something we are not? Also, who is more important? What you think of yourself or what others think? Others don't have to live your life BUT you do.

Isolation is not the solution to any thing in my opinion because the consequences that come with it simply are not worth it nor do they really benefit us and our own best interests.

Society has all these illogical little "guidelines" everyone is to follow and we are all to fit nicely into the little square box. That is all fine and well but it is NOT the way LIFE works! Life is not born nor contained in a box especially in a box that has been fabricated by a society that is full of hypocrisy and contradictory values. In the end, we must all begin to listen to our warrior hearts and follow them if we are to be happy, if we are to be men. Just because a society deems something "wrong" or "right" does NOT automatically make it "wrong" or "right". Our modern society is the EXCEPTION to the historical male bonding norm and it is NOT the norm.

Our society is pandemic with a lack of male bonding and one of the great causes is due to the stigma they have attached to man to man sex. Much of the stigma comes from the God of fear that we have so ruthlessly thrown into our faces but the FACT is GOD IS LOVE and fear is the opposite of that Love. Perhaps we should begin to wonder just "who" fear might be. In my opinion, the truly masculine concept of God is Love, not a God of fear.

Sir Robert

Randy

Re: Isolated

3-12-2003

I was raised Baptist and for years I tried to figure out how I could love God, but at the same time fear him. It took me a while but now I don't believe in God. I definately agree with what everyone has been saying about the impact of our culture. Men have an inaccurate standard that we have to live up to. It forces us warriors to live life with a confused identity. I, like luke, also have trouble making male friends. I have two great friends from high school, but every other guy I've met, the experience has been akward. I can't seem to establish a REAL friendship with another guy. But thankfully I can come visit this site.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Isolated

3-13-2002

thanks guys

to start, just a word about the Faith and churches

"it does no good to raise a child as a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic who is not a Christian -- it's a wasted effort"
Sensei Patrick's mother

"to the extent that it does not carry out the Great Commision -- that being to go forth preaching the Gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- , the church is rotten from its foundation to its bell tower because most of it is an apparatus for controlling people"
Sensei Patrick

as I understand Christianity, there's one Faith

but there are many churches -- all of them run by men, and all of them fallible

some of those churches, which usually claim to be fundamentalist, have chosen to spend most of the last 30 years attacking homosexuality

there's nothing in scripture to justify what they've done

there's one line in Leviticus, repeated in Deuteronomy, which doesn't apply to guys into frot

and there are two other equivocal references in the OT: one which is negative, about Sodom, and the other which is very positive, about the warrior love of Jonathan and David

Jesus Christ, the son of God, who was born, suffered, and died for us and who was resurrected on the third day and who is the intercessor for humankind before the throne of God in heaven, said, while incarnate on this earth, nothing about homosexuality -- not one word

Paul's references are equivocal

if scripture isn't about homosexuality, what is it actually about -- ethically?

worldly power, and its abuse by the powerful

the subjugation of the weak by the strong

the mistreatment of the poor by the rich

that's the over-riding *ethical* concern of both the Old and New Testaments

and in those terms, most churches are not following scripture

what the fundamentalist churches have been doing instead is allowing the repressed homosexual desires of their elders erect hurdles to the Faith

that's un-scriptural and un-Christian

so, you may choose to leave a church

but it's not necessary to give up your Faith

now, regarding Luke and Randy's concerns:

first of all, i want to acknowledge Luke as co-author of the introduction to our Man2Man Alliance page and author of the Warriors Speak post Beatific

Luke says that "Sometimes it seems as if we are tilting at windmills."

though it may feel at times that we're tilting at windmills, we're not

we're changing the culture

and we're succeeding

one indicator of our success is the presence on the site of so many straight-identified men like Luke, men who are now willing and able to talk about their dick2dick desires and experiences

another indicator -- to me -- is that it's been months since i've gotten an email from a gay-identified man complaining about the lack of partners

something similar is going to happen among straight-identified guys like Luke -- and i think for guys like Randy too

right now Luke feels like he's wandering in the wilderness

but i predict that a year from now there will have been a subtle or not-so-subtle change among straight men

because straight guys will have an awareness of this very masculine and very hot activity which is available to them -- with another guy

and life will be a lot easier for everybody

now -- i said a year -- but the pace of the change is largely dependent upon you

your involvement is crucial

publicizing the site, coming out to family and friends, telling people that you're a man who loves men -- or a man who loves women and men -- and *you don't do anal*, you're not promiscuous, you're not effeminate, and *you don't do anal* -- those things are crucial

when you post around the web about the site and frot and anal, you can keep your message short and sweet

as Chuck Tarver has pointed out, it helps to repeat certain key words and phrases when you post

for example -- and please bear with me for this exercise -- you can write a post just using these key words and phrases:

anal penetration

anal is painful

degrading
dirty and degrading
dangerous and degrading
degrading
dirty
dangerous

HIV HPV STDs

anal is painful

fissures and tears

anal is painful

anal hurts

painful

FROT IS HOT

equal and free

masculine

FROT IS HOT

equal and free

masculine

phallus2phallus
man2man
cock2cock
dick2dick

equal and free

masculine

natural

FROT IS HOT
equal and free

masculine

man2man
natural
equal and free

FROT IS HOT

FROT

Man2ManAlliance

here's a sample post using those key words and phrases:

I don't like anal. I've never been into it. Anal penetration hurts; it's painful and it's dangerous. It's dirty and degrading.

Being a bottom is degrading. I don't like that. I don't wanna be somebody's bitch. Penetration's painful and degrading.

Anal's painful. There are fissures and tears. You can get HIV and HPV and syphilis and gonorrhea. Anal's dangerous, it's dirty and degrading.

I love FROT.

FROT IS HOT.

It's equal and free, no tops or bottoms, just two men, man2man sex.

Frot is masculine sex. FROT IS HOT.

FROT is full-body and masculine. I love feeling my buddy's whole body against mine, his pecs against mine, his cock against mine, his balls against mine.

That feels really great, to get all hot and sweaty and rut up against each other, ruttin cock2cock.

Phallus2phallus and man2man, FROT is HOT.

FROT is natural, it's dick2dick and man2man.

FROT IS HOT.

Man2ManAlliance