Patrick and Bill


Bill Weintraub

Patrick and Bill


Patrick, aka Sensei Patrick, and I have fallen deeply in love.

We've just finished the arduous process of moving him from his home-state, where he's lived all his life, to California, so that we can live together.

And for that reason I've been a bit laggard in approving and commenting on new posts.

So if you've posted or emailed me please be patient -- in addition to the new posts and a large number of private emails, a few people have sent me material for posting via email and their thoughts will be going up on this board too -- but slowly.

A relationship, and particularly a new relationship, is often very intense and very private, and it's hard to communicate the experience of it to others.

But what I can say is that I admire and respect Patrick as much as I love him.

And that getting to know him has been and continues to be wonderful.

Regarding the site however and the future of Frot, nothing has changed.

We remain woefully underpublicized, and though we're now averaging over 80,000 visitors per month, far too many guys find us by accident.

One solution is to buy advertising -- but we don't have the money to do that.

Absent such money, what's needed is for you guys to publicize the site and your allegiance to frot wherever and however you can.

If you're single this is particularly important to you.

Think it through guy: up to a few months ago, Patrick had never had sex with another man, and that was because he didn't know it was possible for men to have sex cock2cock.

He had fantasies about cock2cock, but so far as he knew when men had sex, they fucked -- like faggots.

That didn't work for him -- no more than it ever has for me.

The site showed him that it was possible for men to be sexual without ceasing to be men.

And that knowledge in turn led to his being in a relationship with another man.

Patrick's a wonderful person, and I love him deeply, but sexually he's not unique.

There are a lot of guys like Patrick out there, and as they come to understand their situation, they'll "come out" -- in varying degrees.

And so far as I'm concerned, they are where the future of the frot/cock2cock/dick2dick movement lies.

Because I've tried working with the gay male establishment for more than two years -- without success.

That establishment is smug, complacent, and closed; and there's been no sign -- not a single one -- that it will open any time soon.

Rather, I think we can expect the establishment to remain committed to a "gay male lifestyle" based on anal promiscuity, effeminacy, and kink.

And as teens who identify as gay become young men, they will continue to be acculturated into that lifestyle.

Of course we can and must offer them an alternative: a way of life based upon masculinity, monogamy, and phallus-to-phallus sex.

But reaching them won't be easy, since once they accept that "gay" label, they will turn to the innumerable "gay" websites, bookstores, and youth organizations which work to inculcate the mainstream point of view.

But there's another population of men out there.

These are guys like Patrick. They're usually straight-identified, but have strong cock2cock feelings as well.

And because they have yet to be acculturated into that mainstream gay male culture -- indeed, because, like Patrick, they find that culture a major roadblock to the realization of their same-sex fantasies -- it's far easier for us to talk to them.

So while I know a lot of the gay-identified guys don't like to hear this, I think it makes sense for us to look for allies and friends among men who still self-identify as str8 and/or are very new to cock2cock.

Because the reality is that once a man "comes out" or is "turned out" and is socialized into gay male culture, he acquires a set of beliefs about sex and masculinity that are very difficult to get rid of.

That's why I feel that many of us will find that we often have more in common with "str8" guys who are getting into cock2cock than with gay men.

Of course if they're 100% str8 -- which very few men are -- that's another matter.

But if they're into cock2cock, chances are we agree on three key points: anal's bad, masculinity's good, and cock2cock rocks.

Whereas a properly socialized gay man, living as he does in a sea of anal, effeminacy, promiscuity, and sleaze, is going to have major problems with at least the first two of those propositions, and most of the time the third too.

And there's another issue, one which particularly impacts those of us who are into various forms of fighting -- wrestling, boxing, or martial arts -- and frot.

Gay men are taught that fighting and aggression are stereotypically "straight" behaviors, artifacts of patriarchal society, which, in the name of feminism and cultural diversity, are to be derided and eschewed.

But straight men, as Patrick has observed, value aggression. They see aggression as being central to being male, and while of course they believe that aggression must be properly focused and shouldn't be senseless or random, they understand how core aggression and violence are to masculinity.

So while a disciplined straight guy does not practice violence for violence's sake, neither does he see masculinity in men and femininity in women to be adversarial -- rather he understands them to be complementary, and acknowledges both as essential to the human condition and indeed civilization.

For that reason, he values and feels protective towards his woman's biological femininity, while respecting the masculinity and aggression of his fellow men.

We need to be clear that most of mainstream gay male culture, and most gay men, are not remotely in the same place as straight men on these issues.

Gay male culture mocks femininity and uses the bawdy burlesques of drag to deride women.

And, as Patrick has said, gay male butt-fuckers steal the very masculinity from their lover they say they want him to have -- turning him into a pseudo-woman.

Yet a man is not fit or equipped to mimic a woman.

And to men who love women, seeing gay men try to do so is an insult at a very visceral level.

For women are not less than men, they are our counterparts intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.

That's why a man can be a warrior; and a woman can be a warrior; but a man who's been made into a pseudo-woman through being penetrated cannot be a warrior.

And that is the crux of the problem between us and the gay male establishment.

We respect masculinity, and femininity, and aggression. The gay establishment respects none of these, rathers it mocks them all, and in so doing turns life in the gay male subculture into a hell of anal promiscuity, STDs, drag, attitude, and bitchiness.

That bitchiness, says Patrick, is a seque to an excuse for being weaker than a man should be.

And that's exactly right. Gay men, deprived of their masculinity by their own subculture, never learn how to channel their aggression, and so it emerges as bitchiness and meanness instead.

And the irony is that this has little to do with sexual orientation, and a lot to do with cultural expectations.

For straight men, as Patrick points out, are capable of bitchiness too.

But it's far less common among them, since they're taught how to fight, and most learn how to progress from being a boy to being a man.

That's why we have such a strong emphasis on martial arts on this site.

Because men and women into martial arts understand aggression, understand the warrior mentality, and understand the value of *not* fighting.

While of course gay male culture has no respect for aggression. Sports like boxing and wrestling are tolerated only for their erotic frisson, while team sports are of interest basically for locker room gossip and speculation about which player may be gay.

Indeed, gay men in my experience have zero regard for what Dave Sprowls has correctly and on this board termed the sacred bonds between men.

So: the gulf between us and mainstream gay male culture is very large.

I didn't realize that when I started the site 2 years ago. I thought all we needed to do was explain that frot was at our erotic center and we didn't like to be pressured to have anal -- and the discussion would be over.

It didn't work that way -- not remotely. Instead, not only were we censored and accused of treason for simply saying how we felt, but it became apparent that the gap between guys into frot and the gay male mainstream was far greater than most of us had suspected.

That this wasn't just a rift -- that it's a chasm.

The fact of the matter is that in many key areas our attitudes are far closer to those of straight men than of most gays.

So who are we? Patrick says the word "gay" has been highjacked by the analists. And we all know that's true. Can we wrest it from them? And is it worth fighting for?

That's something you guys will have to decide.

But no matter how you self-define, if you want the freedom to live your own life, you'll have to fight for it.


PS from Patrick:

masculinity in men is what keeps us alive on this planet -- that and the motherhood of our women

our women are our present and our children are our future

it's very time-consuming building and sustaining a relationship with a woman

so a man may have same-sex fantasies but not have the time to express them

not that the man begrudges the woman he loves the time

there's an emotional bond and a certain amount of the emotional is above gender -- that's the root of human sexuality

I love Billy Weintraub and that's all that really matters.


Re: Patrick and Bill


Hi Guys

In my opinion, categories and classifications regarding sexual orientation should have been phased out when we entered the new millenium :-) They are now redundant most of the time.

Many of the guys I've been involved with have never regarded themselves as "gay" - for whatever reason they had - and sometimes this wasn't clear. Nor should it have required any clarification.

A few years ago, I dated a wonderful bodybuilder bloke called Peter. Peter had very strong physical feelings for women and had been engaged to a female bodybuilder before he met me. Peter would never describe himself as gay, but he would explain to interested parties that he had very definite and strong physical feelings for guys. He really did need a man in his life. And he was very much into frot. Sadly, he'd picked up a very nasty (but not fatal) STD when he was younger - he'd been fucking another guy when the condom broke. And that's how he picked up the STD which required lots of treatment.

After that experience, it's not surprising he wasn't into penetrative sex very much at all.

Despite being TOTALLY content in bed with my partner, I do think fondly of Peter and hope he's well. He had an amazing physique and used to workout very hard. He had a face like Val Kilmer - truly - people used to think it was Val. Beautiful arms, tiny waist and a very powerful upper body. Totally body-shaven, though, which I could never understand :-) but it didn't worry me. His choice.

I used to really enjoy my favourite thing with Peter - the same thing I love to do to the hot Scot I'm with now - frotriding his hot muscular body (usually with our jocks on) until we both shot.

Nice memories. But this post is really about my agreement with the Sensei and Bill. Categories of sexual orientation are a bit silly now. Sensei Patrick clearly couldn't ever be described as gay, but he truly loves Bill and has now moved in with him. Gay ? Straight ? Bi ? Who gives a toss anymore. We're all Sexual Men of all types. Sexual Men.

Best regards to you all for the New Year and Big Congratulations to the Sensei and Bill re: moving in together - it's a big step and I wish you both the very, very BEST.


UK Mike


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