Bill Weintraub

Re: my first time

3-13-2002

wow

thanks dazza warrior dude

this is a great post, and one of the striking things to me is that dazza and his bro-in-law played football on Sundays

so many of the guys in this club are into contact sports -- ck out for example A Boxer Warrior Speaks and Jocks

and there are so many more guys who write to me who are jocks, closeted, are rubbing or want to rub cocks with their buds, and are very confused

what am i? they ask -- i know i'm not gay -- i'm not into anal, i'm not into that scene -- but i'm really into my budz

so i just say to them -- it's not about gay, it's about guys -- something that guys like to do

it feels great, it's really hot, it connects you with your bud, and neither of you has to pretend you're a woman to do it

cause you're not women -- you're men, and this is something men do

the PC crowd hears me say "you're not women" and says "Aha!!! -- you're a misogynist!"

and i say No, the misogynists are the tops lookin for bitches and the sissy boys out there campin it up in drag -- that's misogynist, and every gay man knows what those bottom boys say when women aren't around -- and it's not pretty -- it's misogynist

men who rub cocks are men who like to have sex with men -- and our feelings about women have nothing to do with it -- some of us are bi, some of us are straight, and some of us are "gay"

but we do it cause we're into men -- like HotSicilian says in "...not into anal" on this board -- cock2cock is something only two men can do

like dazza says, it's awesome

and

it's uniquely male, and uniquely ours

powerfullpepper

Re: my first time

5-12-2002

I knew that I had an attraction to men at a young age, howerer I denied it until I started college and befriended students from New york,Chicago, and Ohio. They helped me find and accept the person I am today. There was an older man I knew in my town who stopped me one day and asked me if I needed a ride. We drove around town and he took me to a secluded place and we only hugged and rubbed our cocks together. It was great, and to this day I prefer to rub, and wrestle with other guys to get off. I believe I am still around today because of my not wanting to have penetration.

Bruce

Re: my first time

6-6-2002

Making an argument that guys who are attracted to guys aren't necessarily homosexual is as offensive to most of us as the argument that sex between males isn't sex unless it's anal--and it just compounds the confusion of those guys trying to understand why they want to get next to that guy they see at the gym. A mystical male wrestling/body contact thing? Bullshit! It's homosexuality--better deal with it!

Otherwise, your essays are excellent and important and make all the points about role playing--the idiocy of tops and bottoms--that need wide distribution!

Bill Weintraub

Re: my first time

6-6-2002

i appreciate Bruce's kind words about my political essays

however, though i also appreciate that many come by their gay identity only after a long struggle, i don't agree with his angry take on men who have sex with men and their alleged "homosexuality"

first of all, of course, Bruce doesn't actually know what's "offensive to most of us"

but basically i go with what guys tell me -- and many of the men on this site say i don't identify as gay or homosexual or even bi

and i think that's fine

homosexuality is a very recent and confining construct, invented by 19th century doctors seeking to isolate and medicalize -- that is turn into an illness -- a natural, normal, and completely healthy human behavior

as such, it wasn't valid in 1869, and there's no reason to stick with it in 2002

and personally i've found that "homosexual/gay" box increasingly confining -- and i refuse to stay there

also, to me wrestling and cockrub are mystical -- the spiritual center of my life and of my life with my lover, which was truly holy

so it seems to me that when we reject what men tell us about various forms of male bonding, and say, as Bruce did, "bullshit, it's homosexuality," we buy into a very limiting view of what actually happens or might happen between two men

as we can see in many posts on this site, most recently Warrior Carlos' account of his relationship with Eddie (furiously, wildly, intensely), and Pete's account of his sex-fights with Hugo (About Dickfighting)

now it's true that i called the site Heroic Homosex -- and that's because i needed a shorthand for the idea of a culture of sex between men that's masculine and noble and heroic

but maybe another term would be better -- for example, a recent correspondent suggested to me "masculine sex" -- he said, regarding Hyacinthine Love, "I always thought there was something called masculine sex. This helps define it." And i agree -- cock2cock and dick2dick -- with or without overt aggression -- define masculine sex.

interestingly, the notion of masculine or feminine sex is close to that of the ancient Romans

they believed that men who spent too much time with women, including sexually, became effeminized -- their word was "mollis," which means soft

whereas men who preferred the company of other men would remain "hard"

so they didn't trust "womanizers" -- and Octavian was able to make use of that prejudice in his political struggle with Mark Antony -- he could claim that Antony had become "soft" through too much association with Cleopatra, while brushing off or even benefitting from Antony's counter-propaganda that Octavian had been Julius Caesar's lover

of course today we'd call these attitudes misogynist, and in a sense they were

but there's no question that many men simply enjoy being with other men -- sometimes without sex and sometimes sexually -- and that the label homosexual is a burden and barrier to them

so what's important is to empower "gay," "bi," and "str8" men to act on their sexual feelings towards other men in a safe and affiliative way, without hemming them in with language which may or may not accurately describe how they feel

because as far as i'm concerned, regardless of how you define yourself, if you're on this site, you're a Cockrub Warrior, and

Bill Weintraub

Re: my first time

6-2-2002

PS

recently, Dan Savage, a syndicated "gay sex advice" columnist who I'm beginning to think must be one of the greatest dopes on this earth, wrote a column with a take similar to Bruce's about bisexuality, castigating men who called themselves "bi" even though they rarely strayed from one gender to the other, and inventing all sorts of needless sociological categories for sexual identity

well i could care less how the guy i'm rubbin cocks with defines himself -- and really what difference does it make?

that was Allen Ginsberg's attitude towards his str8 lover Peter Orlovsky -- he put together an anthology of their love poems and letters titled "Straight Hearts Delight" -- and it's terrific

now it's true that 30 years ago many of us in Gay Liberation made it a point of honor not to sleep with str8-identified guys

but times change

what's happened is that the category "gay" has become so anally ossified and effete that it's gotten in the way of men exploring their natural sexual feelings toward other men

so which do we toss -- the category or the men?

i say the category -- like the emphasis on anal, it's just a cultural construct, it's had its day, and it's time to move on