the absolute center

the best feeling in making love with another man

cockrubbing and wrestling

my true sexuality

In these two powerful posts -- Cockrubbing isn't just "foreplay"! and "The Wrestling Way to Cockrubbing" -- Warrior Andrew64 talks about the deep inner meaning that cockrubbing and wrestling have had for him throughout his life, and talks too about the importance of staying true to his dream. I've reproduced both posts and the replies below. As you'll see, Warrior Andrew's words are an inspiration to me and to other cockrub warriors.

Cockrubbing isn't just "foreplay"!


Warrior Andrew64

Posted 4/2/01

Why is it so hard for a lot of gay men to accept cockrubbing as a "true" expression of sexual desire and not just as foreplay?

The first time I had sex with another male I was 17, he was twentysomething and interested only in anal sex... I wanted to hug another male and rub my cock against his, like I have done in all my erotic fantasies since I was 12, but that wasn't what he was after... it was a complete failure.

I think this is something many of us can understand, that search for a "different" kind of sex that we know, deep inside, to be "ours", but that many others consider childish or incomplete.

It took me almost twenty years to find a partner who is really into the kind of sex I always yearned for. Sure, I had two previous relationships with men who liked cockrubbing, but they were also interested in blowjobs and penetration, so cock-to-cock sex was only a part of their sexual behaviour, while for me it was the absolute center, the best feeling in making love with another man.

I'm also a lot into wrestling, rough play and man-to-man fighting, so my idea of cockrubbing isn't the "gentle one" my previous lovers had. Now my partner, who is ten years younger than me, is also much into wrestling and "manhandling" each other, so cockrubbing is finally as I always wanted it to be, rough or sometimes tender, but always "manly".

I've been really glad to discover this club, finding that there are many others who feel the same for that kind of sex I love. Hope this club will flourish, along with a new understanding in the "gay community".

Thanks, Bill. Let's rub forever!

reply from bill


Awesome and beautiful post Warrior Andrew64, a great statement about the deep inner meaning that cockrub and wrestling have had for you throughout your life, and an inspiring story about staying true to your dream -- with a happy ending too!

One of the questions that's come up for me in reading the posts here in Personal Stories and in Warriors Speak, and in thinking about the dominant culture of anal sex, is why doesn't everyone acculturate into that tyrannical buttfuck culture? In other words, why are there people like me and Andrew and Chuck and Rob and Sierra and Samuel and Missouri and wrestljc and Joey and Paulyvinyl and Brad R. and biggun and stockpeck and Brian and Vince and Joepc and Adam and Paul and cumbat1 and hotdickhead and Don F and Buck Wild and nybox43 and Scott and Darrell and Tom and Jack and Mark and in2jo and Brad and Terry and gentlewarrior and Bull and the tens of thousands of others?

Because, after all, that's what cultures are there for - for people to learn the cultural messages - like "anal sex is the best sex" - and incorporate them into their lives.

So how come us warrior dudes don't do that?

My theory is that in any culture, there have to be people who don't acculturate, or "fit in" - at least not into every aspect. These people are sometimes called inner-directed - they are innovators who feel that they must be true to an inner light. Sociologists call them "deviant" - that doesn't mean they're sick, it means that they "deviate" from the norms of the culture.

But why are those people around? Because, in evolutionary terms, they help the species to survive - that is, their presence has survival value not just for themselves, but for everyone else. That's because conditions change and with them human needs. If everyone was perfectly acculturated, in other words, society would lack innovators who are able to adapt and show others the way when life pressures change. So, from an evolutionary perspective, deviance has survival value, and a species in which everyone was perfectly adapted to their culture could not survive.

We can see that among the current population of gay men. The guys in our club who are my age and lived like me in the epicenters of the epidemic in NYC, SF, and elsewhere survived because we wouldn't and couldn't adjust to the dominant culture.

It's too bad more people couldn't. There'd be a lot fewer dead homosexuals.

So guys into frot don't acculturate into anal sex, even under enormous peer pressure to do so. And this is an important point. If, as the buttfuck boyz like to believe, there is some sort of biological imperative for anal sex, if it were hard-wired into our brains in a way that makes it innately pleasurable, we would all do it and we would all love it, just as we would all be heterosexuals if that were simply a matter of biology.

But it's not.

You can read more of my thoughts about this in my last two letters in The Anal Sex Debate at GayToday.

But dudes, just because it may be built into our species, that doesn't mean it's easy to fight off a cultural tyranny like the Buttfuck Dictatorship.

Cause it isn't.

So just as I honor all the other courageous warrior dudes in this club who've stayed true to their dream, I salute Warrior Andrew64 - and I send him cock jams and body slams in celebration of his brave post and his brave life.


warriors wrestlin hard

warriors wrestlin gentle

reply from Warrior LogDog

Bill, and Andrew64, thanks for your stories and the sensual shots. One of my best friends and I wrestled in gym class one take down involved an arm thru his crotch...think the whole class was shocked that I actually made the move and touched his basket... Had I been able to put my tongue in his mouth, perhaps we would have been able to break through the barrier that never led us to act out our brief look of recognition that day. Despite stay overs, we never engaged in frottage thru our jockeys...I regret not taking the initiative...especially since another friend and I were having frenzied cock rubs thru our jockeys...stiff prongs touching, rubbing, aching to be free; a freedom that will ever leave me devoted to the joy of cock to cock mating and bonding

The "Wrestling Way" to Cockrubbing


Warrior Andrew64

Posted 4/14/01

Since I was a child I was attracted to wrestling, I found the images of men wrestling each other extremely intriguing, even though I obviously didn't know why... I loved Marvel comics (I still do), full of wrestling matches between superheroes and muscular hunks beating the hell out of each other.

My attraction to wrestling (and to big men and bodybuilders) was born there, between the pages of those wonderful comics. Then there were "peplum" movies: the adventures of Hercules, Samson and all the other greco-roman heroes or demigods were filled with scenes of big muscular he-men grappling and battling each other.

But everywhere it was possible to find images of m2m rough contacts that turned me on: Olympic games, western movies, comicbooks etc. It was completely natural for me that the first time I masturbated (I was about 11 yrs old) I used those images to come.

Since then I always found wrestling to be one of the most erotic and exciting contact between men, and I think cockrubbing is inevitably connected to it. When two men clash together chest to chest, locked in a test of strength or a mutual bearhug, it's natural that their cocks clash together as well. I know cockrubbing can be tender and slow, especially with your loved one, but a rough match between two men who grind and slap their hard cocks together is the best! How many boys discovered their "gayness" (and maybe their attraction to each other) while wrestling? I guess many other Cockrub members felt the same things during their youth.

Wrestling is one of the oldest sports in history and one of the most instinctive contact between men (even cavemen settled their differences that way), so it became naturally connected with cockrubbing, another of the most instinctive things two men can do together: whereas anal sex is a lot like heterosexual intercourse (a man can anally penetrate a woman), cockrubbing is something you can do only with another man!

I'm grateful to wrestling 'cause, through its intimate connection with cockrubbing, it helped me discover my true sexuality, and I hope it'll help many other boys and men in the same way.

reply from bill

Another really wonderful post from Warrior Andrew64, strong and clear and forthright.

Posts like this one and GentleWarrior Brad's Learning to be a Cock Rub Warrior and A Boxer Warrior Speaks and Cockster's and Missouri's and so many others take me back to the mythic roots of wrestling and homosex.

And I always think it's remarkable that in a country as spiritually poor as our own, which offers no mythic supports for Heroic Homosex, warriors like Andrew64 and Brad somehow rediscover them on their own, finding in comic book superheroes, who are simply modernized mythic figures, and the Greco-Romans, support and models for their own most cherished dreams.

Yet the peoples of the ancient Mediterranean world understood very well the relationship between homosex and wrestling and cockrub. It's implicit in Gilgamesh, but it was the Greeks who institutionalized it. Every Greek city state had a palestra, a wrestling school, where, in the afternoons, men and youths would meet to socialize, wrestle nude, and look for lovers. As a matter of fact, Plato sets one of his great dialogues about love, Lysis, in a palestra, and not just the palestra, but in the Apodyterium, the "undressing" (or what we would call locker) room, where he describes the young Lysis, who's been watching a game of dice, as "a fair vision, not less worthy of praise for his goodness than for his beauty."

Sweet, huh?

The Greeks were quite clear that wrestling nude would lead to eroticism between males, and that the preferred form of that eroticism should be frottage. Scholars have long assumed that the Greeks only paid lip service to frottage, and that in private they were into anal, even though there's very little evidence for that. I always assumed those scholars were right, until Warrior Patrick said to me, in one his emails, "I've always found that combat and frot are pretty closely tied together... And I've never found a fighter who didn't like to frot."

That got me thinking, cause it was coming not from some academic sitting in an ivory tower, but from a boxer. And I began thinking about other emails I've received that I can't make public, like one from a pro-wrestler who told me there's a big but secret wrestling-frot scene among wrestlers and bodybuilders. Or another from an Olympic wrestler for a foreign nation, talking about his own devotion to frot.

And it occurred to me, literally for the first time, that maybe we should start listening to what the Greeks themselves said, that frottage was the preferred form of m2m sex among these wrestling warriors.

Because we all know - Patrick knows and Andrew64 knows and Missouri knows and cumbat1 knows and I know and a lot more of us know - that nude combat leads to cockrub and dick2dick.

So it's certainly worth thinking about. And that's the beauty of a post like Andrew64's, that not only is it a strong and unapologetic statement, but it gives us so much to think about as well.

The image below of Greek wrestlers that appears elsewhere on the site comes from the base of a statue of a naked teenager, a kouros (to see a kouros, visit Plato's Cave). There were thousands of kouroi in Athens, and most had these nude athletes at their base.

To the Greeks, as to Warriors Andrew64 and Patrick and tens of thousand of others of us, this wasn't just an athletic image. It was erotic as well. For them, as for us, athleticism and eroticism are one.


reply from Warrior Bradwrestle2000

Hey, old wrestling matches on tv, and muscular hercules action movies, were definitely the start for me. If I saw that one of these was coming on TV, I'd go up to my room, shut the door, and hope and pray that I'd have just long enough to get on top of my bed facing the TV, press a pillow or a rolled up shirt underneath me to provide some friction and ersatz-cock, and just go at it furiously. If the wrestling matches were announced at the start of the show, I'd try to time it so that I'd be at full rubbing speed when the most muscular of the wrestlers was either submitting to a long, close hold, or else doing the same to another. Every once in a while I'd try to hold off coming until the sexy pin occurred, and talk about a build-up of passion, damn, if the wrestlers on the TV were in a painful figure four leglock or camel clutch, etc., I'd practically growl as I finally erupted.

The first time I got into some wrestling action with a real dude, it was my good luck that he got off on exactly the same images. We brought ourselves to just about climax while wrestling each other, then pressed our swollen cocks together and rubbed while we watched a super-hot submission hold on the tv. I know that others might say, hey, you got each other right in front of you, why the hell do you also need a tv wrestler at that point, but the point is, part of the excitement is exactly in being right there with another dude who shares the same, long-held, long-secret desire for pro wrestling fantasies. There's nothing as hot as knowing another dude in the universe understands, and wants to get off together

reply from bill

There's nothing as hot as knowing another dude in the universe understands, and wants to get off together.

you know dudes, i've never met brad, but i'm in love with him, and it's cause he says things like that

ck out his entry in Muscle to Muscle and Cock to Cock: Wrestling Warriors Speak

sometimes i think brad is the hottest man in the universe -- he's so hot that i've never been able to find a graphic that matches his words -- cause there's no graphic hot enough

(brad's profile: 29, minnesota, pro wrestling on tv got me started way back, i'd hump my pillow while watching muscular young pro wrestlers, still think cock on cock is hottest, let's go speedo cum rubbing rules)


reply from Warrior Andrew64

Hey, Brad, it may look incredible but I did exactly the same when I was a kid! I too sprawled myself on the bed, on my belly, rubbing against the pillow and looking at wrestling on TV, ready to come... I can't believe you wrote those words, I could have wrote it exactly the same way! I also understand you and your friend looking at the fights on TV while wrestling each other: sharing our erotic fantasies while doing it with a friend or a lover isn't weird or wrong, it's just another way to be intimate with him all the way, body and mind. Thanks for your post, Brad, we're cockrub brothers

reply from bill

that's right andrew, we are brothers, and i feel closer to you guys than i've ever felt to anyone except my lover, cause we all know


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