In the Man2Man Alliance we believe that
Masculinity is a Divine Principle,
Manhood a Divine Gift, and
Frot a Holy Sacrament.













who reject anal penetration, promiscuity, and effeminacy
among men who have sex with men

and

who put forth the Truth that in the Faithful act of Phallic Bonding,
Masculinity is honored and Manhood exalted.








by

Bill Weintraub

Although it is possible to speak of penile-penile frottage in purely technical terms -- as a uniquely male-male form of sexual intercourse which is directly and mutually genital, highly pleasurable, and very low risk, and which preserves and strengthens the masculinity of each partner -- to the Warriors of the Man2Man Alliance, FROT is far more than that.

It is also a spiritual act and a holy sacrament.

For in the Alliance, we believe that Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot a Holy Sacrament:

Robert Loring has said that through the sacred act of Phallic Bonding, "Masculine men are co-creators with each other and with the Divine."

Many of our other Warriors have commented on the sacred nature of phallic sex.

In Beatific, Luke Shelton observes that "what Stephen and I were doing was, in its way, sacramental to us."

While in Soldier Cockfight, Pete says

I ground my dick against his and mixed our juices against our bellies, warm seed of men united in the climax of a holy tryst. I loved him right then for his power and strength, his beauty and raw energy, for the things which make us all men - the powerful, enigmatic brooding presence we all carry within us, the driving forces and lusts which draw us together in such beautiful combat.

In I love FROT, Buddy speaks of the dick interface being "the few square inches wherein men's souls converge":

For me, cock-on-cock is the way to go, because you're two equals and you're sharing exactly the same sensations at the same time, and it's all caused by the same action. And when I feel our combined jizz lubricating our dick interface, my orgasm intensifies twofold.

Head-to-head is fun too, but ultimately, when we "take it home," rubbing the sensitive undersides together is really where it's at.

Best of all, you don't necessarily have to be gay to enjoy it. Every guy can join in.

Sorry about the clinical term "interface." It's the only way I can think of to describe it. I'd welcome some other descriptive term. But how can you describe in words the few square inches wherein mens' souls converge?

And in Jocks, Socks, and Masculine Uniform Frots Spike exults

The truth is that Masculinity is the best thing in the world. Whenever I wrestle another guy, or we put our arms around each other after a hard round of sparring, it feels like some spiritual mission has been fulfilled -- in those moments I always feel so complete, like I'm accepted in a brotherhood of kings. It's like the trust you've just built together will let you conquer the world. it's incredible.

In The Greatest Gift, Bill Schuler says

God bless you for your Web site. I already see where I am coming back to my old self because of the confidence I have about my manhood. This is the greatest gift God has given after life and, someday, immortality and eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And, in the post titled A toast to all Frot-Brothers!, he adds,

Male-male intimacy is the epiphany of maleness.

To which Robert Loring replies,

Bill S. writes, "Male-male intimacy is the epiphany of maleness." He's right! During an epiphany one feels a higher sense of something divine and spiritual. That IS what two intimate males feel together! That is what 2 frot brothers feel together because frot is MORE than just sex. A psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established during this epiphany. THAT makes frot MORE than just sex men!!

While in like water in the desert, Frances observes:

When you talk of sacramental rites, and God's love being revealed through phallic sex, that is something, I believe guys want to hear. The constant reassurance you provide that you don't want them to move farther away from God, but to actually get to know him better through their love of men --

is like giving water to a man in the desert. He wants that. He needs that. I see many men needing that reassurance. I really think you are right, that this is hardwired into all men. They want to be warriors, they want to have their phalluses exalted. They want to know the full love of a brother, and they want to know God's love.

(And, yes many of them want to incorporate women and children into their lives).

So, the Greek model is apt, and of course the Catholics and other Christians have tried to co-op all they find powerful about that civilization, while reinterpreting things that they don't want followed. Thus, some will try to tell you that you don't understand Greek culture as well as you thought you did. Brother! But such a culture can never be again without phallic love, without warriordom.

Robert, Luke, Pete, Buddy, Spike, Bill S, Frances -- they're all correct.

God's love is revealed through Phallic Sex.

Phallic Love and Warriordom are intertwined.

God smiles upon the Warrior and the Phallic expression of his Manly, Brotherly, Love.

For just those reasons, the images you see on this page, created by the FROT artist EROS V, are holy to us.

This first image correctly depicts phallic bonding as fully, completely, and directly mutually genital.

Cock is pressed tightly against cock.

Balls pressed tightly against balls.

MANHOOD against MANHOOD.



The cocks interact at their most sensitive point -- the underside of the phallus.

They connect frenulum to frenulum.

This is the moment when sensation is most intense, and the Divine at hand.


This second image is drawn from the beginning stage of cock combat.

The Warriors' balls, which are full of Holy Warrior Jizz, have prompted these cocks to fight.

The cocks stand erect and poised at the beginning of a spiritual mission and a holy joust -- Phallic Battle which will lead to Phallic Bonding and the convergence of Warrior souls.

A passage through sacred rage to sacred love.

A spiritual mission.

A holy joust.

Most do not understand the sacred nature of cock combat.

But cock combat unites Eternal Strife and Eternal Love.

The two poles of the Warrior's existence.




For us of the Alliance, cock combat is not about "recreational sex."

We reject any "recreational" or secular use of sex.

For only by returning all human beings -- not just men -- to a sense of sex as sacred can we reverse society's slide into raunch and sleaze.

This site, this Alliance, the sexual act that we here celebrate, and our loyalty to each other are about MEN, MASCULINITY, and MANHOOD.




It is because Man is sacred to us;

that Frot is sacred to us.

It is because Masculinity is sacred to us;

that Frot is sacred to us.

It is because Manhood is sacred to us;

that Frot is sacred to us.





We are committed to the Sacred Bonds Between Men.



Spirituality is core to our Alliance.

Because spirituality is core to the lives of our core members.

Our True Warriors.

Speaking for myself, spirituality is core to my life.

Actually, spirituality and sexuality are core to my life.

And they always have been.

For me they're intertwined.

They cannot be separated.

And they're bound up with my love of Men and Masculinity.

Sexuality, Spirituality, Masculinity.

Again, those elements can't be separated or taken apart.

They're a whole.

When I was in my late teens and early 20s, I entered into psychotherapy in an effort to become "heterosexual."

And according to the psycho-sexual theories of the day, the only way for me to do that was to deny my love of men and manliness.

Here's how I describe that process in a forthcoming memoir:

For seven years I toiled mightily in the vineyards of psychoanalysis. I learned to hate my mother, to date women, and to do my best never to think about men. It didn't work. The suppression of my erotic longings toward men was not compensated for by an increase in desire for women; rather, I was left with no feelings at all, I became more and more dead inside and began to fear that my spiritless body would itself become nothing more than a desiccated shell.

In short, I was being done to death not just psychologically but spiritually.

And I realized that if I continued with the process, there'd be nothing left of me.

Just a husk.

Spiritually and morally empty.

Ironically, I now realize, the way to have awakened my love of women would have been to give full and celebratory rein to my love of men.

But in the dichotomous theories of the day, which have persisted into this era, hetero- and homo- sexualities were considered antithetical.

They're not.

As Redd keeps saying:

Logically, to me at least, "homo" sexual defines the sexuality of all "homo" sapiens. And given the fact that most mammalians demonstrate "bi"-sexuality, "homosexual" seems to better define homo-sapiens, that is, species who are attracted to their own species. Which means that all homo-sapiens are homo-sexual; all are attracted to their own species. Hence, whether the attraction is man2man, woman2woman, and/or man2woman (the combinations of which don't really matter), the attraction is homosexual. "Heterosexual" would mean two different species.

Right.

And would that we could get people to understand that.

Unfortunately, today most talk about sex and spirituality is governed by the religious right.

Which seeks not only to divorce the two, but to silence all speech about sex which is not their own.

This is a huge problem, because in our society, speech is regulated by the courts, and the religious right has worked long and hard to place on the bench people who support their censorious views about religion and sex.

But, though the religious right will certainly try, they can't have it both ways.

If they're allowed to talk freely about sex and spirituality, then so am I.

Because my religious views and my fundamental right to freedom of religion are just as valid as theirs.

And in my system:

Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot -- the Marriage of Manhood with Manhood -- a Holy Sacrament.

To again repeat what Robert Loring has said, "Masculine men are co-creators with each other and with the Divine."

Frot -- the act of Phallic Bonding -- creates a higher order of MAN.

And for me, MAN is SACRED, MAN is HOLY.

MAN.

Made in the image of his CREATOR.

MAN.

Through this sacramental act of the joining of Phallus with Phallus I and my bonded Warrior Brother create a higher Masculine being.

And Masculinity is Sacred.

Robert: "Masculine men are co-creators with each other and with the Divine."

To me, that says that two Masculine Men, united in the act of Phallic Bonding, bring forth or are visited by the Divine, which smiles upon their union as an act of Creation.

The creation of a higher Masculinity.

Sacred Masculinity.

And the Sacred Bonds between Men.

Here's how we define Phallic Bonding:

Powerful physical cum mystical sensation experienced during Frot of two phalluses becoming one, resulting in an intense male-male bond.

"Phallic bonding" expresses both the power of pure masculine genital union and the intensely spiritual nature of Frot at the moment when, as Mart Finn has said, "fighting cocks become mating cocks."

That's the essential Warrior experience, a passage through rage to love.

And it's fundamental to male male sexual expression.

It uses MALE AGGRESSION -- and MEN are defined by AGGRESSION -- to bring MEN to LOVE.

Again, it creates a higher order of Masculinity.

Let's be clear about the term "sacrament."

According to Webster's, a sacrament is "a formal religious act that is sacred as a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality"

"Formal" -- meaning having a definite shape or form.

Which Frot does.

Whether it occurs in an area of the home set aside for sex or in God's great cathedral of the forest, mountains, and sea, it is a distinct series of steps leading to a Holy Union.

"Religious" -- in this act we worship the God in Man and the Man in God.

"Sacred" -- Yes.

"As a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality" -- Nothing is more spiritual to me than the union of MAN with MAN.

That has been true of me for my entire life.

And I have spent the last seven years creating this movement and these websites which are full of images -- as many as I've been able to find -- of this symbolic and sacred act.

NO ONE CAN SAY THAT THESE IMAGES ARE LESS SACRED TO ME THAN A CONVENTIONAL IMAGE IS TO SOMEONE FOLLOWING A CONVENTIONAL RELIGION.

WHAT I FIND SACRED, WHAT I DEEM HOLY, IS BETWEEN ME AND MY CREATOR.

NO ONE CAN COME BETWEEN US.

No state authority, no religious authority.

NO ONE CAN COME BETWEEN US.

When I look at MAN my soul is exalted and lifted up.

And meditation upon, and the practice of, the sacramental union of Manhood with Manhood is for me a religious act.

This is not just about AIDS.

Though AIDS is a dreadful disease.

Nor is this only about anal.

Though anal, in my view, mocks the Creator.

And let me say, that I've been reluctant to emphasize this simply because I know that some of you have been beat up by religion in your lives and don't want to hear religious talk.

But I can't forever let your abuse at the hands of faithless clerics silence me.

Anal mocks the Creator.

And effeminacy offends the Creator.

Redd:

Man is Man. He ain't got no feminine in him. His glory is his masculinity, just as women's glory is their femininity. Man is whole; woman is whole.

...

In short, a lot of what we "know" about society are cultural creations. Man, masculinity, manhood, etc. isn't a cultural creation. Woman isn't a cultural creation. Man is man; woman is woman. He ain't no woman; she ain't no man. Man is whole and woman is whole. Manhood is divine; womanhood is divine.

Exactly.

Manhood is divine.

Womanhood is divine.

Effeminacy mocks both.

So -- this isn't just about AIDS, and it's not only about anal.

This is about MEN and MASCULINITY which to me are HOLY.

Phallus is Manhood.

Manhood is Man.

Phallus2Phallus.

Man2Man.

For me, there is nothing more holy than the Phallically Faithful Union of Man with Man.

And that these thoughts originally appeared in a message thread titled bludgeoned is appropriate because that is what the religious right, no less than the analists, seeks to do to us.

To bludgeon us for the practice of our faith.

NO.

NO.

NO.

If they get to say it, we get to say it.

Our thoughts about what is holy -- and what is not -- go into the great marketplace of ideas which makes America what it is;

and it's up to the INDIVIDUAL -- the free man and free woman -- to decide who is right and who is not.

In my view, the constant denial of Masculinity, Manliness, and Manly Love by the religious right is blasphemous and fundamentally evil.

And I mean it.

Over the last four years, Dr. Edward C Green, the Harvard medical anthropologist who first described the success of partner reduction aka Fidelity in reducing HIV prevalence in Uganda, and who by virtue of that work has access to people on the religious right, has endeavored to build bridges between our Alliance and those evangelicals who claim to want to respond to AIDS.

They won't talk to us.

Dr. Green has tried many times.

No response.

Can you imagine that?

Faced with this hideous disease, and having chosen to put themselves forward as "religious people" seeking to respond, they won't talk to a group which advocates Fidelity and Frot, PROVEN methods to fight HIV.

It is sickening, and at a fundamental level, it is evil.

EVIL.

Robert Loring:

Some of us have had enough of modern Western culture and we try to find ways NOT to be a part of it. We spend as much time as possible AWAY from the psychotic culture out in the wilderness somewhere where we can still find a sense of natural manhood, peace, and joy, and YES, even LOVE. We await the fall of Western society (and it is falling) and the return to the natural, historical, and traditional NORMS! We await the return of a culture in which males are free to love other males and in which homophobia is no longer known, praised, or worshipped. We see clearly how natural human culture has been destroyed in the West and we await the resurrection of natural human culture as it was intended by the Divine to be. In short, we await a return to the old ways and ancient culture and the rebirth of the brotherhood of man.

"We await the resurrection of natural human culture as it was intended by the Divine to be."

"In short, we await the return of a culture in which males are free to love other males and in which homophobia is no longer known, praised, or worshipped."

Robert has nailed it.

That's what the religious right is about: denying males the freedom to love other males while worshipping the golden calf of homophobia.

It's BLASPHEMOUS.

Was CHRIST homophobic?

CHRIST was a MAN, who, as Redd has pointed out, spent most of his time in homosocial groups -- with other MEN.

St. John describes himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loved," adding, "who also leaned on his breast at supper."

So maybe the evangelicals should cut the crap.

Robert: "We see clearly how natural human culture has been destroyed in the West and we await the resurrection of natural human culture as it was intended by the Divine to be. In short, we await a return to the old ways and ancient culture and the rebirth of the brotherhood of man."

"the resurrection of natural human culture as it was intended by the Divine"

"the rebirth of the brotherhood of man"

Robert uses religious language and properly so, for ours is a Holy Quest.

And I for one will go on saying so:

Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot a Holy Sacrament.

Robert:

"Brotherly love, the opposite of fear, is the only Creator."



Recently one of our Warriors observed that

Along with the de-masculinizing effect of anal, I think this is another reason men resist expressing that part of their sexuality that is homosexual. They don't want to be forsaken.

Right.

What has taken place, for lack of a better word, is what I'll call the "de-sacralization" of sex between men.

It's been made unholy by a combination of "religious" nonsense and analism.

That has to be corrected.

Men have to once again see the sex that occurs between them as sacred.

I've learned from you that in the world of the Greeks, and other ancient warrior societies, they pretty much felt the same way about what made them men -- sexuality, spirituality, masculinity -- as you do. The way to be forsaken in their world was to deny that.

YES.

There's been a complete reversal.

Where once masculinity, sexuality, and spirituality were intertwined, and their interrelationship normative, today they're cut off from each other.

In Warrior societies, they were not.

For example, when a Greek took part in a festival honoring Apollo, he was worshipping an unabashedly male, Masculine god who'd taken both male and female lovers.


Statue of Apollo ca 525 BC

Which was true of many of the Greek gods and heroes -- they had both male and female lovers.

In addition there was a god specifically devoted to male-male love.

And to what Dave Sprowls has called the sacred bonds between men.

Here's how that worked:

Ares, the god of war, married Aphrodite, the goddess of love.

Their daughter was Harmonia, or Harmony.

And their son, in some versions, was Eros.

Eros was the god of male-male love.

And, interestingly, he was originally portrayed as an adolescent.

Does that mean that the Greeks thought of male relationships as "adolescent" -- as in immature?

NO.

What it means is that the Greeks recognized the importance of male-male relationships in the development of Natural Masculinity.

Here's what my foreign friend said about that in the post titled Natural Masculinity and Phallic Bonding:

Masculine male groups and bonds play an extremely important role in the development of physical, mental, emotional and social aspects of natural masculinity. As such they are an important part of the positive environment that all masculine identified boys should have. An otherwise masculine identified man who is deprived of membership in a masculine male group / bond during his growing years will be less than 1/4th naturally masculine than if he had such an opportunity. Masculine identified boys have a natural tendency to seek to join male-only groups, and it's their natural right.

The masculinity of men flows from their group. It's like their natural masculinity combines and gets manifold when masculine identified men unite. The camaraderie, mutual understanding, support, playing together, learning the ways of the world as a male, dealing with roughs and toughs of life together --- they all help to develop the natural masculinity that exists within him.

An intimate sexual relationship between two masculine men is equally necessary for the mutual development of their natural masculinity.

The social classification of "sexual orientation" which is actually a social mechanism to isolate male-male sexual behavior from heterosexual spaces and group it with the third sex under a combined 'homosexual' label, takes away this much needed right from a masculine identified boy who is strongly in touch with his same-sex feelings.

So:

War + Love = Harmony

War + Love = Male-Male Love

The Greeks understood this well and it was canonized in their mythology.

What this meant in practice was that if you were a man in love with a woman, and wanted divine aid in furthering your case, you prayed to Aphrodite.

And if you were a man in love with another man, you prayed to Eros.

The Greeks also prayed to Eros before battle.

Because Eros strengthened the bonds between men.

Moreover, the expression of the idea that love between men was sacred was not limited to the gods.

Because in addition to the gods themselves, there was the whole race of what the Greeks called "demigods."

Some of them, like Heracles, whose father was Zeus and mother a mortal woman, were clearly half-divine; but many were simply mortal men whose actions had made them not only heroic, but had conferred upon them an aura of divinity.

Not unlike Christian saints.

My favorite example are Castor and Polydeuces.

We would call them fraternal twins, because they emerged from their mother's womb at the same time;

but actually they had different fathers.

Their mother was Leda, a mortal.

Zeus came to her in the form of a swan and impregnated her.

But Leda's mortal husband slept with her later on the same night, and also impregnated her, so that she gave birth to the wholly mortal Castor and the semi-divine Polydeuces together.

The two brothers were inseparable companions and immensely devoted to each other.

When they were killed in battle, Zeus carried Polydeuces to heaven.

But Polydeuces refused to accept immortality without Castor; and so they both were eventually raised to the level of gods.

Let's be clear about this.

Polydeuces told Zeus that he'd rather be forever dead than be immortal without his brother.

Zeus' response was to make both men immortal.

Polydeuces by the way was a boxer; Castor a wrestler.

This story of brotherly sacrifice was immensely compelling to ancient men, and Castor and Polydeuces were enormously popular among both the Greeks and the Romans -- which is why "by the twin gods" was a common oath.

So in the story of Castor and Polydeuces you have masculinity and divinity and mutual great devotion combined.

And people really liked that.

And they would again, if we could present it to them.

I've learned from you that in the world of the Greeks, and other ancient warrior societies, they pretty much felt the same way about what made them men--sexuality, spirituality, masculinity--as you do. The way to be forsaken in their world was to deny that.

Right.

So again, it was "normative," it was the norm, it was normal for men to combine and interconnect sexuality, spirituality, and masculinity in their lives.

Men who denied that connection were -- in Frances' word -- "forsaken."

They did themselves spiritual injury.

And often, they were cut off from their community.

Whereas those who celebrated those values -- were supported and cherished by their fellow MEN.

And that's what we're trying to do here in the Alliance.

We've presented three values as core to the Warrior's existence:

Masculinity

Fidelity

Frot

Masculinity we all understand -- though there's a definition of Natural Masculinity which you'd do well to ponder, because it talks about the relationship between male sexuality, male aggression, and homosex.

Why is Fidelity a core value?

Recently guy told me that he likes to work out in the morning and then jerk off in the shower room with another, anonymous, guy -- before work.

Well, that's certainly very low risk, and he finds it validating.

Which is okay so far as it goes.

But what I want for that man and for every man is that he have a bonded Warrior brother who cares for him the way Achilles cared for Patroclus, Aristogeiton for Harmodius.

And Polydeuces for Castor.

And he's not going to find that in a shower room or sauna.

Won't happen.

Nor is such a sexual expression sacramental.

It's not bad.

But he could have so much more.

Frot is a sacramental expression of a holy union between two loving MEN -- sacred phallus to sacred phallus.

The consistent honoring and practice -- that is, living out -- of these three values will have the effect of "re-sacralizing" -- MAKING SACRED AGAIN -- sex between Loving Men and the bond that sex expresses.

The alternative is for men to stay in a heterosexist world in which the sacred bonds between men are denied; and/or an analist world in which an unholy and demeaning act practiced promiscuously denigrates and devalues that which should be sacred -- Masculinity.

And we can see very plainly with males like Mark Foley and Ted Haggard what happens to those who chose analism and heterosexism and "religious" chicanery over Truth.

Their lives are nothing but hypocrisy and lies.

And ultimately they're caught up in those lies and betrayed by them.

No good.

THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR WAY IS THE WAY OF SALVATION.

BECAUSE IT IS AUTHENTICALLY HOLY.

SEXUALITY

SPIRITUALITY

MASCULINITY

HONORED, CHERISHED, AND EXALTED.

Bill Weintraub



Robert Loring:

Can you imagine what boys would be like today if they were raised in a contemporary Agoge? Raised to be men who were proud and unashamed of their innate masculinity. Raised to be unashamed of their male bodies and penises. Instead they are being raised under the boot of guilt and shame and by the time they become adults there is already a great and dark cloud hanging over their heads! A cloud of guilt and shame which eats them alive from the inside out!

In most societies in ancient times masculinity and the male penis was honored and esteemed. Today it is dishonored and shamed. No longer is a male's penis a thing of pride but of guilt and embarrassment. That may be what the world teaches but that is no the way our one Creator sees it. Notice people are still being born NAKED? If the male penis was so vile and evil then surely God would make it so male's were born with clothing already on! Or surely the Creator would just remove the penis altogether prior to birth!

The return of the Agoge would make boys into men and men into Warriors! They would be natural males as divinely intended to be. They would have a clear sense of manhood and walk in pride and they would not live under a cloud of shame and guilt.

Boys under the Agoge, says Robert, were "Raised to be men who were proud and unashamed of their innate masculinity. Raised to be unashamed of their male bodies and penises."

If we look at this illustration of the Spartan kings, which is based on sculptures and vase paintings

what's striking is the nudity.

Robert is right that there's no shame.

Just pride.

Also notice that the genitals are presented unadorned.

No penis sheaths or gourds.

The genitals are simply there.

This is me, this is who I am -- I'm a MAN.

Here's an original Spartan statue:

And another:

And another:

And another:

Each guy is wearing a cuirass (breastplate + backplate), but their genitals are prominent and exposed.

And that's how they went into battle.

Again, here's the illustration:

You can see that the king on the left is wearing a cuirass with stylized male musculature.

Again, he's accentuating his maleness.

But very often they did not wear a cuirass.

Just a helmet and a shield.

If you check out Hoplites / Nude Combat there are more illustrations and original Greek art.

And they're very striking.

Robert:

The return of the Agoge would make boys into men and men into Warriors! They would be natural males as divinely intended to be. They would have a clear sense of manhood and walk in pride and they would not live under a cloud of shame and guilt.

These are indeed "natural males as divinely intended to be."

By contrast, think of all the men today afflicted, as I just described, with testicular HIV.

Their balls are literally diseased.

Which means their manhood is diseased.

This is not a metaphor.

It's a reality.

And it's a direct consequence of what Robert aptly calls "an ongoing war upon manhood and natural masculinity."

And as Greg says, the honoring of "pseudo-women INSTEAD OF and AT THE EXPENSE OF naturally masculine males."

Robert:

It's time to change society BACK to what human society is traditionally and historically meant to be!! It's time for males to take PRIDE again and break their chains of enslavement!



Call and response from the message thread titled A toast to all Frot-Brothers:

Bill Schuler:

Male-male intimacy is the epiphany of maleness. Take that away and we can be made androgynous. This is what was done in Soviet Russia--the GOVERNMENT imposed it by MILITARY FORCE. However, people fought back AGAINST THAT!!!!

But, if your SPIRIT is crushed, Men: you have NO FIGHT in you!!! Your SPIRIT is MALE! Your BODY is MALE!! What you have between you when you FROT is DIFFERENT than what is between a male and female for vaginal intercourse. It is NOT the same--it is SOMETHING ELSE!!

If you have an awareness of your MALE SPIRIT and BODY to COMPLIMENT that, no matter how much they try to convince you, you will be STEADFAST in your mind. And, EVEN MILITARY FORCE WON'T WORK!!!!

Fight back, Comrades. Any of you out there speaking and acting effeminate--CEASE AND DESIST AT ONCE!!!!! You ARE MEN: BEHAVE MANLY!!!!!

Have NOTHING TO DO with analists!!! You have NOTHING IN COMMON with them--PERIOD!!! If people ask you if you're a homosexual or gay, say you are a man. In the minds of most people, gay=anal. WE may rebut this, but the people have mind up their minds. The analist have hijacked the words "homosexual" and "gay". How we take it back, is: by not coming across as what most people expect--and, by such QUALIFIERS as "Heroic Homosexual" when designating what we are. (My personal opinion) we'd be better off dispensing with the word "gay" altogether because of connotations.

If we set the tone, the evangelicals will be forced to stand up and take notice. We're HERE and were NOT GOING AWAY!! No matter their rhetoric, WE'LL be LIVING PROOF as to the FALLACY of their claims. That (coupled with the utter HYPOCRISY on THEIR part) and they'll lose ground. (Who knows?) It may even mean a REAL REPENTANCE on THEIR PART and a coming back to the God Whom they claim to represent, wherein: they'll TRULY be the shepherds they have assumed the responsibility to be--and, STOP SCATTERING CHRIST'S FLOCK INSTEAD GATHERING THEM INTO ONE FOLD!!!!!!

Nevertheless, Brothers, DON'T LOSE WHO YOU ARE!!! I love you all and bid you Godspeed.

Robert Loring

Re: A toast to all Frot-brothers!

11-14-2006

Bill S. it is great to hear from you again my brother. I stand behind you and support you in your battles against the LDS. Know that you are NOT alone in your fight!

In his above post Bill S. wrote: "Joseph Smith was a frotman (with his brother Hyrum) having lived before there was any concepts of "homosexual" or "gay" Brothers, at this juncture, I would like to chime in with this: at the time Joseph Smith lived (1805-1844) people DIDN'T think in terms of "homosexual" or "gay" There wasn't a "gay" subculture. Men were MEN--PERIOD!!! " That's historically VERY TRUE! In the 1800's Men were MEN period just as Bill states. People did not think, back then, in terms of "gay" or "homosexual" because FROT between MEN was NORMAL MASCULINE MALE BEHAVIOR. Men didn't go to and fro broadcasting it to the world but it was a "man thing" that was understood without words. Men spent MOST of their time with other men. They fellowshiped with other males, they worked with other males, they suffered and shared with other males, and they shared VICTORIES with other males. Look at the old pictures for they tell the story of these men! Men were unafraid to love each other and they were unafraid to express their love for one another. It was all very contrary to the situation we have today in the world. Males showing affection to other males was considered not only NORMAL but also as EXPECTED! Those males who did not show affection for their brothers were the ones considered ABNORMAL. But, with growing industrialization and the end of WWII the UNDERBELLY of America turned up and all this NORMAL MASCULINE behavior began to come to an end. Right became wrong. Wrong became right. It's all got to be PUT BACK the way it was!

Bill S. writes further, "So, to Smith, male-male intimacy was normal and natural because there were no associations with anything considered abominable. Anyone giving or taking it up the butt was considered a SODOMITE or a "dog" (which is what the KJV of the Bible calls such perverts). It was understand that the Bible condemns such ACTS and it was enough to suffice, so, you do not find in Mormon Scripture mention about male-male intimace. It was a non-issue in Smith's day." Bill is absolutely right again! M2M intimacy was considered NORMAL and NATURAL! It was NOT considered "sinful" or "abominable." What was considered sinful and abominable was anal between men. Those men were considered, as Bill states, to be Sodomites. However, males who frotted together were NOT included in this concept of Sodomite abomination and sin.

Bill S. continues and says, "People are looking for some clarity. So, these charlatans come along with their flim-flam ruse and dupe these suckers: all for the FAST BUCK--PERIOD!!! " I agree. People today ARE looking for clarity because the roles have been blurred badly. But, we not NOT look to most of our churches today for such clarity because most of them have one "god" they truly worship and that "god" is the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!! They no longer pass the collection plate in many churches today. That collection PLATE has been replaced by a collection BUCKET (5 gallons BTW). Take a look at Rev. Benny Hinn for example. But, alas, the churches were warned about listening to false prophets and false teachers speaking from the pulpit were they not? So, I'm not really surprised that MONEY has become the almighty "god"!!

Bill S. continues, "The LARGER SICKNESS is about power and control: subduing a free-thinking mind. People like these leaders make statements, such as: "We have more money than EVEN GOD!!!" Right again! Most religion (ANY religion) is about MONEY, POWER, and CONTROL!! And, as for "free-thinking people" that is a "No! No!" in most churches today because free-thinking people pose a CHALLENGE and THREAT to the status quo and if the status quo is upset that means empty collection buckets!! That's why many church leaders today just want you to fold your hands, smile, and just listen to them BUT keep your mouth SHUT. They don't want you to ask questions or challenge what they are telling you. They wish only that you BLINDLY accept what they are telling you is true. Some call it "blind faith" which, in fact, is a most DANGEROUS kind of faith!! Yet, at the SAME time they tell us that we are to take on Christ as our own pattern and example for and in our own lives. REALLY??? Let's see, Christ DID NOT sit like a nice boy, silently. In FACT, Christ CHALLENGED the WHOLE religious authority of his day!! I don't care what the churches today say about this. READ the Bible because it is CLEAR that Christ was a REVOLUTIONARY as far as the religious leaders of his days were concerned! Christ did not preach or advocate CONFORMITY or BLIND FAITH! He preached and advocated LIBERATION and BROTHERHOOD! And he advocated FREE-THINKING! His teachings are CONTRARY to what the so called "Christian" churches teach today!!

Bill S. writes, "Male-male intimacy is the epiphany of maleness." He is right again! During an epiphany one feels a higher sense of something divine and spiritual usually. That IS what two intimate males feel together! That is what 2 frot brothers feel together because frot is MORE than just sex. A psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established during this epiphany. THAT makes frot MORE than just sex men!!

Bill S. continues and says, "If people ask you if you're a homosexual or gay, say you are a man. In the minds of most people, gay=anal." I absolutely agree 100%!! We are MEN first and FOREMOST!! Frot is NATURAL and NORMAL for MASCULINE MEN and that is NOT considered "gay" at least in times past (ie: for the last 5 million years!!). As Bill points out when most people here that one is "gay" or "homosexual" they AUTOMATICALLY equate those LABELS with anal sex! If you are into FROT and not anal and you tell someone you are gay or homosexual you are giving them the WRONG message about yourself. You are telling them that you are into sodomy! But, you're not! So, perhaps you should avoid using those terms and just simply tell people that you're a MAN!!

Bill S. continues and shouts out to the church leaders today, "STOP SCATTERING CHRIST'S FLOCK INSTEAD GATHERING THEM INTO ONE FOLD!!!!!!" Bill, my friend and brother, you have hit it right on the head I think!! All the self-righteous, ego/money worshipping leaders today ARE scattering the people! It's like a song I heard recently says, "Religion is hate! Religion is war!...." Sad that so many of the religious today fail to see the DIVINE FACT that our ONE COMMON CREATOR is INCLUSIVE and NOT exclusive! They are the blind leading the blind and they are being led right off into the ABYSS!! Many people today are seeking a "revelation." Well I have a REVELATION for them and here it is:

"ALL religions are of HUMAN invention! God has NOT even sanctioned ONE of your HUMAN INVENTED religions!....God does NOT want ANY of your human invented religions. ALL that God wants is your FAITHFUL LOVE and that IS all."

Maybe someday I'll tell the world just where that "revelation" came from. Or, maybe I won't lol.

Bill W. asks the question concerning Bill S., "Would Christ have excluded him?" The RESOUNDING answer historically and BIBLICALLY is a resounding, "NO!!" No because Bill S. is doing nothing wrong, nothing "sinful." In fact, Bill S. is standing up for what he knows is RIGHT and he is standing up for Christ!! Like Christ, Bill S. has challenged the religious authorities of our days and he needs the support of all of his fellow frot brothers and Warriors here in his fight!!

In fact, we ALL need each others support and fellowship here on this site!! Warriors who fight alone are kinda STUPID warriors because they can quickly and easily be outnumbered and defeated. BUT a BAND of WARRIORS becomes much more difficult to defeat my brothers. So are we to be rogue loner warriors? Or are we to be a BAND of Warriors and stand together???

What Bill S. is facing and fighting is what we are ALL facing and fighting whether we realize it or not. False teachings have invaded not only Christianity but ALL religions and not simply the LDS but ALL churches today. It is NORMAL MASCULINE MALE behavior that is UNDER ATTACK today and that attack is coming from ALL segments of our society including ALL of our religions!!

Maybe someday the underbelly will be made the underbelly once again. Maybe one day what has been traditionally and historically masculine MALE will become so AGAIN. Maybe some day the world will once again come to know and understand that FROT is NOT SODOMY but that it IS NORMAL masculine male behavior!! Maybe one day INTIMACY between males will NOT be looked down upon as "wrong and sinful" but as a BLESSING because it IS a BLESSING! A purely NATURAL and MALE blessing!! And maybe, just maybe, one day someone will found a SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT that supports and advocates all this (God knows we DON'T need another religion!) OR is that what we have here already??


Bill Weintraub

Re: A toast to all Frot-brothers!

11-14-2006

Thank you everyone.

These are wonderful and very important posts.

Robert writes:

Maybe one day what has been traditionally and historically masculine MALE will become so AGAIN. Maybe some day the world will once again come to know and understand that FROT is NOT SODOMY but that it IS NORMAL masculine male behavior!! Maybe one day INTIMACY between males will NOT be looked down upon as "wrong and sinful" but as a BLESSING because it IS a BLESSING! A purely NATURAL and MALE blessing!! And maybe, just maybe, one day someone will found a SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT that supports and advocates all this (God knows we DON'T need another religion!) OR is that what we have here already??

Yes, we do have it here already.

And that's what I think we should be -- a movement for social change which is at its core spiritual.

I've said for years that without a sense of sex as sacred and sacramental, men will be forever mired in analism, pansexualism, and similar snares and delusions.

Because absent a sense of the sacred, sex quickly becomes consumerism.

That's what's happened among gay men.

And it's killed them.

So either we honor the Divine in Man and the Sacred in Sex; or we die.

My late lover Brett used to say to me that most people just don't think of sex between men the way I do -- as something sacred, or, as Robert just beautifully said, a BLESSING.

But, you know, the way I look at this is that the secularists and the effeminists have had their go, and they killed half-a-million men in America alone in less than 15 years.

That's formidable.

That's far, far, far more people than have died at the hands of "homophobes" in the entire history of the human race.

And that's not all.

Another 500,000 American MSM are now infected; and facing a lifetime, if they're lucky, on toxic medications.

And that's not all.

Because the same people who gave us AIDS in America also in my view let AIDS loose upon the world.

Where an additional 25 million have died and 40 million are infected.

I don't know if someone like Dr. Chin would agree with me about the role the American MSM epidemic played in hastening the worldwide epidemic -- the pandemic.

But I think that's what happened.

American MSM constituted and still do a huge reservoir of infection.

So the little escapade known as gay male promiscuity which sought to divorce sex from the sacred and which also sought to divorce males from their masculinity not simply by encouraging but by pressuring them to engage in a degrading and emasculating act -- has cost us all dear.

Which means it's time to return, as Robert says, to what has been "traditionally and historically masculine," to an act which is "A purely NATURAL and MALE blessing!!"

Let's start with an historical point.

Here's Robert again:

In his above post Bill S. wrote: "Joseph Smith was a frotman (with his brother Hyrum) having lived before there was any concepts of "homosexual" or "gay" Brothers, at this juncture, I would like to chime in with this: at the time Joseph Smith lived (1805-1844) people DIDN'T think in terms of "homosexual" or "gay" There wasn't a "gay" subculture. Men were MEN--PERIOD!!! " That's historically VERY TRUE! In the 1800's Men were MEN period just as Bill states. People did not think, back then, in terms of "gay" or "homosexual" because FROT between MEN was NORMAL MASCULINE MALE BEHAVIOR.

That's correct.

Frances just sent me an article from the Discovery channel about Abraham Lincoln's male "lovers."

We've discussed one of Lincoln's many homosocial relationships on this board: Lincoln and Jack Armstrong, who met in a wrestling match -- Lincoln was apparently a formidable wrestler and a natural fighter -- and who went on to become fast friends.

The Discovery article, which is based on the work of C. A. Tripp, a pioneering gay theorist, mentions a couple other men whom I hadn't heard of before.

Let me just warn you that the article uses the terms "homosexual" and "gay" to describe Lincoln, which is absurd.

Obviously he was neither homosexual nor gay, but it's likely he was involved sexually with other men.

What's important to understand is that again, to the men of that era, which predates even the word "homosexual," what Lincoln did was not considered abnormal or weird or sinful.

Remember that Abe Lincoln was a tremendously controversial figure in his own time, very much hated by many people, and he was assassinated.

If those who detested him had thought he was guilty of sexual misbehavior with another man -- they would not have been quiet about it.

So his passionate friendships with other men were the NORM.

That's why they were not the occasion for significant gossip or calumny.

This is what Frances said in her email about the article, and for clarity I'm putting my replies to her in red:

I'm sure this is old news to you. But, that Coontz artilcle, and your response to it about what the Victorian era men with the "fleshy poles" did in the bed reminded of what I had heard about Lincoln a few years ago.

[Bill: Yes. The bit about the "fleshy poles" comes from an early 19th-century letter written by a man who eventually became a senator from South Carolina.

At the time of the letter, though, he was a student writing to his college roommate.

This guy was a contemporary of or slightly older than Lincoln.

And like Lincoln he married and had kids and was a pillar of the establishment.]

Believe me, I'm kind of tired of this "who's gay?" bullshit. Because, like you, I know in my heart that human sexuality lies along a contiuum for all of us. So it feels like we're beating a dead horse. But, I know yours is the job of educating men (and I hope more women) and that it is a neverending job for the forseeable future.

[It's a task we all share.]

I don't remember seeing anything about Lincoln on your site.

[Once again, you can learn a bit about Lincoln and his friend Jack Armstrong -- with pictures -- here.

He certainly isn't perceived as an effeminate man,

[That's right, these men weren't effeminate or in any other way "gay."

Read about Jack Armstrong.

This has nothing to do with 20th century conceptions of "homosexuality."

This is men being men.]

and one has to wonder how effeminate, if at all, his lovers were if indeed one was a Captain David Derickson of his bodyguard. So was Lincoln an analist, or a guy into frot?

[He certainly wouldn't have been doing anal.

And they didn't do oral either.

They would have done Frot and mutual masturbation.

Anal is an artifact of late 20th century gay male culture.

It's not a common practice.

And for most of human history oral has been denigrated also.

Remember, people didn't have soap.

They had no way of staying clean.

It's very easy to communicate parasites via oral sex -- even just penile fellatio.

But more than that it's what Robert keeps saying: Frot is NATURAL to Men.]

It might be helpful to young guys like Justin to see that a great man that they have grown up with in American schools was not so different than themselves in this respect.

[That's right. Lincoln was a Man.]

Since so many men think that their love of men elevates them morally, we might credit this as doing no harm, and indeed enhancing his character. It would be interesting to see how A. Lincoln would have responded to the venality of characters like Haggard who would destroy a Justin.

[Yes -- there were certainly people in the political life of Lincoln's time who were the hypocritical equivalents of Haggard and Foley.

But the word "homosexuality" did not exist.

So the preachers weren't out there railing against it.

They would have talked about Sodom.

But Lincoln wasn't a sodomite -- by any standard.]

I do believe that the general abhorence of all things "gay" does lie in analism and effeminancy.

[Yes -- what I would say is that heterosexualization leads to analism which leads to more heterosexualization.

heterosexualization --> analism --> heterosexualization

There's a feeback loop there just as there is with HIV and anal.

They sustain each other.]

Like I've said I always found beauty and grace in the palpable sexual energy among men, but that was always wiped away by what I considered to be a very ugly act (ironic considering the value the gay community places on aesthetics/maybe it's a compensatory reaction to this practice).

[No, that's overstated and it's a stereotype.

Basically, in years past, some gay men tended to get involved in the arts because people in the arts were more tolerant of "deviance" and "eccentricity."

But the main thing is that we were aware of those men because it was far safer for gay men to be *visible* in those fields.

That's why we think of gay men and antiques or the ballet or whatever.

But at the same time there were a huge number of "gay" bankers and stockbrokers and auto mechanics and factory workers.

It's just that you couldn't see them -- they were closeted and hidden.

Key point: there's NO relationship between same-sex attraction and aesthetics or nurturance or anything else.

These sorts of myths work to the benefit of the forces of heterosexualization and ghettoization -- they assert that gay-identified men are "special" in some way.

They're not.

They're just men.]

I hated the idea of any men I cared about doing this, so I always assumed there was something innately homophobic about me.

[No.

Anal is repellant to any person of good sense.]

However, frot was an epiphany for me because I could see it as something intensely masculine, and something I could see being a positive in the life of any man, including those I love.

[YES!]

It's probably too late for them, but I hope future boys never have to be denied this part of themselves.

[I hope so too.]

So: The Love of Man for Man was at one time completely normal and natural, and the sort of passionate friendships Lincoln had were so common that they were barely noticed.

We need to be clear that those friendships enriched those men not just physically and emotionally, but spiritually as well.

We've stated many times on this page that Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot a Holy Sacrament.

Robert and Bill S:

Bill S. writes, "Male-male intimacy is the epiphany of maleness." He is right again! During an epiphany one feels a higher sense of something divine and spiritual usually. That IS what two intimate males feel together! That is what 2 frot brothers feel together because frot is MORE than just sex. A psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established during this epiphany. THAT makes frot MORE than just sex men!!

Bill S: The epiphany of maleness.

Right.

An epiphany is a revelation -- a spiritual revelation.

Suddenly you are given a glimpse of the Divine, of the eternal, of that which lies beyond yourself.

Plato talked about ideal forms and shadows in a cave.

Masculinity is an ideal form -- a Divine Principle.

Frot too is an ideal form.

It's the highest expression of Masculinity on this earth.

From the mutual manhood of two Warriors, their manly affection, and their primal male aggression, comes an exalted Masculine being.

Robert: "During an epiphany one feels a higher sense of something divine and spiritual usually. That IS what two intimate males feel together! That is what 2 frot brothers feel together because frot is MORE than just sex. A psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established during this epiphany. THAT makes frot MORE than just sex men!!"

Robert: "A psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established during this epiphany."

Right.

That psychological and SPIRITUAL connection is established by a physical act -- the bringing together of the two phalluses.

During this act, the Warrior's Manhood merges with that of his Warrior brother.

His brother of the Heart, as Robert has said.

And these two Men together, through the merging of their Manhood, create something which one man alone cannot create:

A higher order of Masculinity.

Also, this is not a passive bringing together.

Rather, the phalluses are aggressively thrusting against each other in a pure and primal act of mutual male aggression.

A passage through rage to love.

So: human beings are physical, and all sacraments therefore begin with a physical act.

But human beings are also capable of seeing beyond the physical.

I mentioned Plato's cave.

In that allegory or parable, human beings mistake the shadows cast on a cave wall -- for reality.

They're not.

The shadows are not reality.

Reality lies outside the cave.

The shadows in the cave are just a dark reflection of that reality.

In the parable, some human beings are able to get out of the cave and see the real forms which are casting the shadows.

That can be described as an ascent to knowledge, or an overcoming of ignorance -- or as a spiritual experience.

Also in the parable: when those who've escaped the cave return, and try to explain to the cave dwellers what they've seen and learned -- they're not believed.

They're rejected.

Now:

I have no question that Frot is a higher order of sexuality.

And that it is the HIGHEST expression of MAN2MAN.

During Frot, you merge your Manhood with that of your Warrior brother.

That's what Frot is:

Two Warriors bonding Phallically: Manhood2Manhood.

There can be no higher sexual expression of the Love of Man for Man.

A Love which is Sacred.

And we should say so unceasingly.

What happens during anal?

Does the analist top bond his cock to the shithole of the bottom?

Who would want that?

At the center of anal is repulsion.

Because you can't leave your dick in a shithole.

Frot is the opposite:

There is a NATURAL attraction of cock for cock.

Two bonded Warrior cocks constitute the Ideal of Manly Love.

Of Masculine Love.

Of the Love of Man for Man.

Can I imagine an Eternity spent Phallus to Phallus with my Warrior Brother?

YES!

That might well be a definition of Eternity.

Robert says we don't need another religion -- and that's right.

Redd:

It seems that for religious people, they condemn what they are, what they practice. They condemn because they feel condemned. They feel God has really rejected them. They talk religious talk, walk religious walk because they're conflicted with their natural selves against unnatural demands of religion. They define holiness as otherworldly, an otherworldliness that requires they cut themselves off from their whole self, that they separate body and mind because "the body is the tool of the devil."

I think such distorted thinking is the type of platform analism and heterosexism thrives upon. The Church has demonized the body, and analsts acknowledge such demonization by infecting the body with fatal diseases. It's like an exorcism. The only way to exorcise a demonized body is to kill the body.

When I think about what Bill posted, that drug abuse, alcohol abuse, and promiscuity (which is physical abuse) characterize the gay community, I hear of a community that has condemned itself. I hear of a community that has mistaken promiscuity for fun and has given themselves to delusion by ignoring the fact that they are killing each other more than is homophobia as they claim. I hear of a community that hates itself just as the religious fundamentalists condemn themselves and just as the heterosexists delude themselves.

We have seen on many of these threads that analists, heterosexists, and religious fundamentalists are similar, if not the same. Each encourages delusion. Each condemns the body, especially the male's body.

Yes.

We need a spirituality and a spiritual practice which does not condemn the male body, but which honors it.

And which recognizes that the body too is a gift from God.

As is the ability to bond Phallically Man to Man.

So: Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot a Holy Sacrament.

Robert:

Maybe one day what has been traditionally and historically masculine MALE will become so AGAIN. Maybe some day the world will once again come to know and understand that FROT is NOT SODOMY but that it IS NORMAL masculine male behavior!! Maybe one day INTIMACY between males will NOT be looked down upon as "wrong and sinful" but as a BLESSING because it IS a BLESSING! A purely NATURAL and MALE blessing!! And maybe, just maybe, one day someone will found a SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT that supports and advocates all this (God knows we DON'T need another religion!) OR is that what we have here already??

Yes, we have it.

We need now to communicate these truths to our fellow Men.

Guys -- do it or die.

I've seen the dying part and I have no doubt that if I live long enough -- and if you guys do nothing -- I'll see it again.

What I haven't seen is the true liberation of Men.

That awaits YOUR action.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2007 - 2013 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.



Robert Loring in While society slouches towards matriarchy:

Our society is NOT normal nor is it NATURAL. And no matter how some wish to delude themselves into thinking otherwise we all feel something deep down within us that reminds us that our present society is NOT the historical/traditional NORM and that there is definitely something WRONG with society today.

Suppose you had a brother whom you considered fairly normal while the two of you were growing up. Then one day you brother began to change for no apparent reason. He suddenly stopped wrestling with you and he stopped hugging you. He obviously begins to withdraw into himself and you know it because you can see all the signs in his change of behavior that tell you something is wrong with your brother.

Time goes by and your brother stops displaying his masculine nude body to the world. Suddenly, you can see shame set in as he no longer goes without a shirt and never exposes his genitals like he did in the past. Once, you know, he was proud of his developing manhood but now it seems that he has become insecure and ashamed of his manhood. You begin to get concerned for your brother and you try talking to him to find out what is wrong. But, little brother won't talk to you on any level below the superficial. He avoids answering your questions and he assures you that there is nothing wrong, nothing bothering him.

Once the two of you wrestled endlessly night and day but now you notice that your brother rejects your invitations to wrestle. You can tell that there is now an emotional distance between the two of you and that it's getting wider. Little brother becomes very homophobic and you soon discover that ANY male-male contact or expression of emotion is quickly deemed "faggot" by your little brother. Little brother now spends endless hours talking about "faggots" and pointing out everything around him as being "gay." When he sees two males hugging he really goes ballistic because he deems such behavior as "really gay!"

Time moves on and little brother gets a job and marries. He becomes consumed in his job and when you see him that's all he seems to want to talk about. You soon figure out that the reason for this is because he is avoiding talking about his feelings. He wishes to avoid talking about his feelings because he is in a state of denial and he thinks he's doing a great job at hiding from you what is bothering him. But, in fact, HE'S NOT!

Little brother's marriage does not go well and doesn't last long. Little brother has slid into a daily life of alcoholism and his wife believes he has also slid into a life of sexual addiction because she knows he's having affairs with other women and, she suspects, maybe even with other men! Little brother's marriage ends in a nasty divorce and the children he and his wife bore pay the price (as always) for they now are forced to live the broken home life.

Time goes on and little brother isolates himself more and more not only emotionally but now physically as well. You're worried about him because you know something is badly wrong with him and has been for awhile. But, he won't talk to you and he denies everything you say to him about his growing problem. Now, lost in his own self rejection and dislike he drinks more and more. You begin to realize that you don't even really know your little brother anymore. He has become like a stranger.

Little brother maintains that there is nothing wrong with him. He tells you over and over that he is "fine and normal." But, you know that this is not so. You know that he is not "fine and normal." One afternoon a police officer comes knocking at your door to inform you that they have found your little brother dead. He put a bullet in his head. All these years you were torn. You knew there was something wrong but at the same time you wanted to believe what little brother said, that he was "fine and normal." But now, on this sunny afternoon with the police officer standing in front of you everything you suspected about little brother NOT being "fine and normal" is blatantly CONFIRMED.

Would you think that a little brother being like this was "fine and normal?" Would you conclude that he was just doing what other males do normally and naturally? Would you reject your own suspicions that there might be something very wrong with little brother? Would you stand by doing nothing as you watch little brother sink further and further down the abyss of abnormalcy, isolation, alcoholism, and major depression? Could you not see that little brother was on the road to SELF DESTRUCTION? And would you really be so surprised when the police came to tell you little brother had committed suicide?

Little brother is our modern industrialized society folks. No one in their right mind would see all these major changes in little brother and fail to realize that something was really wrong with little brother. So, do we continue to ignore little brother and downplay his symptoms hoping that everything will be ok? Will we continue to close our eyes to the FACT that NOTHING IS OK with little brother right now? Will we be so surprised with modern society commits societal suicide?

The past few decades have seen a dangerous ideology promoted. That being that the world is all about "Me! Me! ME!....Wonderful ME!" But the FACT is that the world is NOT all about YOU! It's about US!! All 6+ billion of US! The only thing the ME focus has done is to force people into isolation and neurosis more and more. It has taken what is historically and traditionally RIGHT and turned it into wrong while at the same time it has taken what is wrong and turned it into "right." Somehow....someway....people have got to band together and fight against the raging tide of the unnatural that is beating us all today. If we don't then I can assure you that we will witness and be an involuntary part of the coming societal suicide. Something IS WRONG with little brother! It's NOT going to be OK! It is NOT going to all go away either! BIG brother is going to have to take some action and help little brother right himself up again. Little brother is modern society. YOU are BIG BROTHER!!

I love Jedi's idea of a society based on Sparta's model. A WARRIOR SOCIETY! As I have said before, "The path of the Warrior IS the path to humanity's SALVATION!!" Society cannot go along the path it is now on for much longer. Something is going to give. We all know it and we all feel it. It's just a matter of time before it all comes unglued!

Homophobia, isolation, FEAR, depression, anxiety, selfishness, and egotism! These are what our industrialized, consumer-ridden society has produced. Industrialization might have made humanity's life easier BUT we are ALL paying the price psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually. Some of us are now asking, "Is it all really worth the price?" I'm one who shouts out a resounding, "FUCK NO!!"

And, as for masculine men such as Alexander the Great somehow being time warped into our own modern times he'd be a lost, confused man. He'd be a man who never would realize his potential for greatness and he'd die as a man unknown to the world. How can I be so sure of this? Because there are MANY Alexander's today in the world BUT they are SILENT and they refuse to come forth and claim the greatness that is RIGHTFULLY theirs! Instead, they stay in the shadows of society, hanging back, and they die unknown men. They feel like they do not belong in this time. They feel like men out of place and out of time. They innately know and honor the "old ways" of manhood and masculinity. The ways of the ancient Greeks and Spartans. The ways of true manhood and masculinity. Yet, they know that our upside down society would crucify them especially for their innate M2M love.

MEN NEED OTHER MEN psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, and PHYSICALLY!

Little brother is screaming out! Who will hear him?



Robert Loring writing in the About Ted Haggard message thread:

The thinking of the religious right is in fact primitive. And it is, indeed, people like the hypocrite Ted Haggard who condemn what is NATURAL in order to maintain their own power and egos, not to mention their bank accounts.

These people continue to demonize the male body and everything natural for and about all males. The urge to masturbate is NATURAL for all males straight, gay, or bisexual. Jackin' Off is a NATURAL MALE thing just as two males beating off together is a natural thing. Yet, it's all condemned and passed off as "sin" by the right wingers steeped in their own egotistical sense of self righteousness and "holiness." And so many guys grow up with an overwhelming sense of shame and guilt for having "sinned."

These people have demonized the human body and especially the masculine male body. They have demonized natural male aggressiveness and the natural male spirit of competitiveness. No longer are males aloud to be proud of their masculine bodies as they were in the times of the ancient Greeks and Romans! Today males must cover their "sinful" nakedness because, to these people, a nude masculine male is a billboard for SIN. Bullshit!!

HOW CAN A SACRED CREATION CREATED BY GOD BE SINFUL AND DEMONIC?

That is what the male body is. A Sacred Creation! The body is the LIVING TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit. The body is something to be cared for and respected but not worshipped, biblically. Yet this BIBLICAL FACT is completely ignored by the right wingers steeped in their own egotism and self righteousness! It's NOT God who has demonized the male body and everything NATURALLY MALE but it is people like the HYPOCRITE Haggard et. al.

Countless numbers of males have grown up feeling no connection with other males and fearful of sharing their feelings with other males, which is NOT real good for anyone's mental or spiritual health. Countless numbers of males have grown up under feelings of shame because the cannot resist their NATURAL male urges like masturbation and/or love for another male. These males live out their lives under the jack-boot Nazi-like OPPRESSION of the right wingers like the Gestapo Haggard! They fear being themselves! They fear being naturally masculine males for fear of being condemned by Haggard's idea of a hateful, vengeful, angry God. And all the while the FACT that Christ preached FREEDOM and LIBERATION is ignored!! Christ was NOT against natural maleness. He was for it!!

As for Rev. Pearson and his INCLUSION theology he is probably closer to the truth than any of the right wingers want to believe. But the right wingers will never accept his Gospel of Inclusion because if they did then they would have no "enemy" (ie: sinner) for which to rally around the "troops." And, of course, you know that, that means empty collection plates on Sunday mornings.

Haggard built a big financial empire under the guise of God. Yet now his hypocrisy is exposed for the whole world to see. That man's mouth spewed so much hatred about gay people that it was like listening to Satan incarnate! Rage, anger, and hatred flowed from his mouth against gay people like an untamed raging river of fire and brimstone. Yet, now he has confessed to being what he so rallied people to hate....HOMOSEXUAL!! I'm glad his hypocrisy is now exposed and that the man is now silent. Perhaps now he will find time to come to terms with his OWN self rejection and manhood since he no longer has to live the lie.


Bill Weintraub

Re: About Ted Haggard

11-6-2006

Thank you Robert.

Yours are the words of an HONEST MAN.

Which Haggard is not.

I want to respond to something Haggard said on Sunday:

"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life."

"Deceiver and liar" is right.

But Haggard, ever the brainy little saboteur, managed to mix in there the notion that sex between men is immoral, repulsive, and dark.

And then to subtly cast himself in heroic terms by saying he's been "warring against it."

NO.

This male is no hero.

And he's most certainly NO warrior.

To use his own words:

Ted Haggard is repulsive.

Ted Haggard is immoral.

Ted Haggard is dark.

What's HEROIC is the open and honest LOVE of MEN.

Man for Man.

Warrior for Warrior.

The LOVE of MAN for MAN.

NOT the drug-crazed lust of a fucked-up closeted cleric for a hustler.

But the LOVE of MAN for MAN.

The Love of Men is a source of Light, a source of Good.

And it is profoundly MORAL.

I can't imagine my life without the love of Men and Masculinity.

Men to me are luminous beings.

For me, Masculine Men have a divine aura.

And I mean that.

An aura.

They radiate life.

That's why I have all those pictures of fighters on this site.

Because to me Man the Fighter Man the Warrior partakes of and gives forth the Divine.

Of course, a man has to be behaving morally when he fights and elsewise in his life.

But for me, not just Sexuality, Spirituality, Masculinity -- but Men, Masculinity, Morality -- are all interconnected and intertwined.

As Robert has often said, a truly Masculine Man is also a Moral Man.

The ancients too understood that.

Vir -- Virilis -- Virtus =

Man -- Manliness -- Morality =

Virtue.

Masculinity and Morality.

That's what's given me the strength to live my life the way I have -- honestly and openly.

Despite the opprobrium which has been heaped on me by people like Haggard and the analists.

What's REPULSIVE about Haggard are his constant and unrelenting lies.

And I ask the Christians among you to compare him to myself and the other men who've posted here.

Men like Robert and Redd.

No joke.

I mean it.

Because I know that many of you are still mired in that Haggard / religious right bullshit.

Ask yourself -- who's honest?

Ted Haggard or Bill Weintraub?

I don't have a mega-church I don't have a big house in Colorado I don't have an SUV.

Why?

Because I haven't sold my soul to the sort of dark forces that Haggard has represented throughout his benighted career.

Haggard says he's been a deceiver and a liar all his adult life.

I've done the opposite.

I've told the truth all my adult life.

Even when it was not and is not popular.

When I came out, coming out was NOT popular.

Nor was it easy.

What I've said about anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy has not made me popular either.

Nor has it been easy.

Doesn't matter.

What I say is the TRUTH.

That's why I say it.

Haggard does the opposite.

He lies for gain.

HAGGARD IS DARK.

HAGGARD IS REPULSIVE.

I look at the parking lots of these mega-churches and they're full of SUVs.

And I go Whoa -- should a Christian drive an SUV?

Not when there are people hungry, not when there are people homeless -- of course not.

These people keep talking about values.

What values?

Where values?

Who values?

All I see is selfishness and greed.

And Haggard to me is among the worst.

He won't stop.

He gets caught doing drugs and paying for sex with another male.

And he USES that to characterize sex between men as dark and repulsive.

What an asshole.

Both his behavior and his words are contemptible.

Here's a Value:

The Devoted Love of Man for Man.

THE LOVE OF MAN FOR MAN IS AMONG THE HIGHEST EXPRESSIONS OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

You can't make money off of it -- but it's a Value.

Masculinity is a Divine Principle, Manhood a Divine Gift, and Frot a Holy Sacrament.

Those are Values.

That's what I believe.

And I won't stop believing it because someone offers me money.

Yesterday I got an email from a guy who said, I've donated in the past and would like to again, but I'm an atheist and I'm concerned that in that Haggard message thread, you're proselytizing.

Well, as it happens, I'm not proselytizing, I'm trying to explain the Faith to guys who've been taken in by that "if you're into guys God hates you and you can't be saved" bullshit.

But let me make something very clear.

I AM NOT FOR SALE.

I don't care if you're an atheist, a Jew, a Christian, a pagan, whatever.

Doesn't matter.

Donor dollars do not buy Bill.

It doesn't work that way.

Donate because you think it's the right thing to do.

Do not donate because you want to change the discussion.

You will not.

Everyone is welcome here: atheists, agnostics, believers, etc.

But I get to say what I think.

And if I believe that Masculinity is a Divine Principle and Manhood a Divine Gift and Frot a Sacrament -- I get to say so.

Haggard and people like him are for sale.

I'm not.

Frances said to me in an email:

I think your declaration that m2m love needs to be seen as sacramental again is HUGE. Weren't many of the ancient Greek myths telling their culture--"THIS IS SACRED". Imagine that culture without that belief. Imagine boys believing that again.

YES!

And that's why I talk about sacramental.

Because if Men thought of the sex between them as Sacred -- their lives would be transformed.

Yet there are people out there who will not so subtly offer me money to stop talking about faith.

The mind boggles.

And it's two sides of the same coin.

The atheists / secularists want to advance their agenda -- and Haggard wants to advance his agenda -- with nary a thought for the, in this case, MEN who will get crushed between them.

But that's who I care about:

the MEN.

Now, here's the TRUTH about male-male sexual desire as expressed by my foreign friend:

My experiences of working with young men for the past 10 years + my experiences of living in a traditional society show that male sexual desire for men cannot be tied down to a minority group. Rather it is a universal male phenomenon, especially strong amongst masculine men --- unlike what the west propagates. It also seems that the male phobia against such bonds in America is mostly socially engineered and partly a media hype.

I think male sexual bonds are an important part of masculinity that must be made available to all men (and not just a specific group) --- especially in their youth --- and with suiting masculine pride. Depriving men of this amounts to robbing them of their true natural masculinity.

Let's look at this statement closely because it's important:

"Male sexual desire for men cannot be tied down to a minority group."

Yet that's exactly what Haggard wants to do.

He wants to restrict this desire which is NORMAL and NATURAL to what he considers an evil and perverse minority.

And again, I urge those of you who are Christians and are struggling with these issues to look at that very closely.

Because it's apparent to me that, if we are made in our Creator's image, and if, as my foreign friend says, "male sexual desire for men is a universal male phenomenon, especially strong amongst masculine men" -- then:

THE LOVE OF MAN FOR MAN

IS PART OF THE DIVINE PLAN

And it is BLASPHEMOUS to characterize it as dark and repulsive.

Is God dark and repulsive?

Does God exclude from his kingdom those who live natural and moral lives?

Does God exclude anyone?

Look at what Haggard says.

He's a blaspheming, lying idiot.

And that's all he is.

My foreign friend:

"It also seems that the male phobia against such bonds in America is mostly socially engineered and partly a media hype."

No kidding!

"Socially engineered and a media hype" -- and who's engineering it and who's hyping it?

Ted Haggard and his well-heeled, well-connected buddies.

My foreign friend:

I think male sexual bonds are an important part of masculinity that must be made available to all men (and not just a specific group) --- especially in their youth --- and with suiting masculine pride. Depriving men of this amounts to robbing them of their true natural masculinity.

DEPRIVING MEN OF MALE SEXUAL BONDS AMOUNTS TO ROBBING THEM OF THEIR TRUE NATURAL MASCULINITY.

WHICH IS A GIFT FROM GOD.

Yet Ted Haggard does it.

Again, I urge the Christians among you to think really really really really really really really really hard about Ted Haggard and what he believes.

And about yourself and what you believe.

That man is a blaspheming liar and hypocrite.

And something else too -- this is from an email Aswad sent me today -- I've asked for permission to post the whole email and I hope it's forthcoming:

Interesting too how all those Black Preachers who were against Gay Marriage turned out to be PAID BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION huh? I guess ho's come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Even Religions.

Ted Haggard has been a whore for the religious right.

The religious right has given him money and power.

And those are NOT Christian values.

Or Jewish values, or Islamic values, or Buddhist values, or Hindu values, etc.

They are NOT SPIRITUAL.

They are of this world, and that's all they are.

Haggard is a man who gained the whole world and lost his soul.

That he was empowered to do so by a force we call the "religious right" is utterly damning.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2007 - 2013 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.



Guys -- don't let crap like gender theory separate you from what God and Nature gave you in such abundance:

Your Masculinity;

and

Your WARRIOR SPIRIT.

I speak of Masculinity as a Divine Principle and of Manhood as a Divine Gift.

And I describe Phallic Bonding as a Sacrament.

While Robert speaks of Masculine men being co-creators with each other and with the Divine.

That's a beautiful phrase describing something which is not just beautiful but holy.

And which these fashionable theories would destroy.

So the harm is not just physical or psychological, it's spiritual.

And that's not something we can abide.

I talk about some of these issues in a number of posts, including

The Fallacy of the Feminine;

The Power of the Masculine;

Natural Masculinity and the Weight of the Lies; and

Creating a Masculine, socially dignified space: Loving a Man as a Man.

And I encourage people to re-visit those posts -- and all the more recent posts on our Personal Stories board.

Here's the main thing:

The core heterosexist lie -- that real men don't have sex with men -- is so powerful and so entrenched that it distorts everything about men and sex.

That lie must be destroyed.

It's inimical to NATURAL MASCULINITY.

Which depends, for its full development, on men being able to relate phallically to other men.

Natural Masculinity -- true Masculinity -- and what we call "Heroic Homosex" -- which is phallus2phallus -- can not be separated.

They are linked and intertwined.

Phallus is Manhood

Manhood is Man

Before MEN can be fully MEN again, then, they must be able to rediscover and reclaim their PHALLIC, NATURAL, MASCULINITY.

And everything we do should be in the service of that goal.

MASCULINITY, SEXUALITY, SPIRITUALITY

PHALLIC BATTLE

PHALLIC BOND

Heroic Homosex is Warrior Homosex

Warrior Homosex is Heroic Homosex

And Heroic Homosex is Sacred.

Bill Weintraub

March 23, 2007









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